played demo, considering buying, have these questions first, appreciate help, thanks!

[onomastikon]

Hello,

enjoyed many aspects of the demo, but had some questions before buying. Thank you very much for your help and input.

1. Multiclassing. When leveling up in the demo, I saw that the priest and the mage, for instance, could *NOT* choose another class. The other chars were limited in their choices too. Is that different in the full version?

2. Multiclassing II. I tried switching the monk, for example, to Ninja (a class I really want to check out), but found the game considered her a level 6 Ninja (instead of lvl 5 monk lvl 1 Ninja), and I am unsure which skills etc. I lost and which ones I gained. How does multiclassing work in the real game?

3. Multiclassing III. The special feats, such as Ranger searches continually -- do they work if you only take one level of them? Do they work only if the char is currently that class? (Let's say at lvl 3 I want my Ranger to become a fighter -- will he still search continually?)

4. Stealth. I am particularly keen on playing a "Ninja". I just love sneaking around in RPGs. I am confused, however, as to how stealth etc. works in the party-based 1st-person view. How can the Ninja scout ahead, surprise enemies, assasinate, and otherwise be stealthy if the rest of the gang has to tag along?

5. I read in many reviews of the game that people complained that they could not figure out how to drink a health potion during combat. In the demo that worked without a hitch for me. Not so in the full version?

6. I loved Deus Ex, Planescape Torment, Fallout 1&2, Arcanum, Baldurs Gate (in that order, too), my favorite all time games. Will I also dig Wizardry 8?

thanks for your help

[sloucho]

Hi Ono,

I'm still figuring the game out myself, so you'll get more in-depth answers from others, but here's one player's response:

You should definitely buy the game. Planescape Torment is 2nd on your all-time list; it's first on mine. This game appeals to me for many of the same reasons that Planescape did (statistical complexity as compared to games such as Diablo or the Final Fantasy series, attention to interesting details on the part of the programmers, and a few references to Kafka thrown in for good measure--one of the 1st boss creatures you will encounter in W8, a giant roach, is named 'Gregor').

1.
I never saw the demo, so I can't speak to what you've mentioned about it, but you can change from any class to any other class in W8 provided your character meets the minimum statistical requirements of the new class.

2.
When you change classes, you retain *almost* all of the advantages of the class you're changing from, but you can lose access to certain items and skills. For instance, if you change your rogue (with a lockpicking skill of, say, 10) to a fighter, he will continue to have a lockpicking skill of 10. The most significant difference for him will be that he cannot then improve his lp'ing skill through practice (something that he could have done--and almost inevitably did do--in his time as a rogue). But sometimes change comes with even more serious consequences. When you change a bard to a mage, the mage will continue to be able to play any instruments that she was capable of playing as a bard, but when you change a gadgeteer to a fighter, the gadgeteer will no longer be able to use his mk weapon.

3. I can't be much help here, but here's what I THINK:

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Let's take rangers for example.
If I remember correctly, rangers cannot continue to get ranged criticals once they change classes. (I wouldn't know, as I've never gotten around to changing any of my rangers to anything else. But that's what I've gathered from other posts.) On the other hand, I believe that rangers retain their search ability after changing classes. (Again, I don't know, but this is what I've gathered.)

4
Sorry to be the bearer of bad tidings about your ninja, but he'll only be able to scout ahead if you play him by his lonesome. The chief drawback to W8 (the only drawback in my opinion) is that your party is less like a group of 6 individuals than a sort of hydra. You have 6 different heads (and sets of hands) that can do 6 different kinds of things. But they're all sort of sewn together at the hip. When you enter combat, there's no way to separate your mage from your bishop. And unfortunately, they're both stuck to your ninja's (whose stealth is pretty much a glorified AC bonus).

5.
Can't imagine what the reviewers were talking about. The interface is extremely intuitive.

6.
Yes you will. No doubt about it.

[vesselle]

the following is an analysis by Tennesse Ernie Ford, who is very well respected in rpg circles for his studies:

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Class Changing

Some people seem to be asking about this. Feel free to disagree, as they are only my opinions. If you just like the idea of a mage turned ninja, make it so (but be forewarned that the ninja won't be particularly effective).

Opinions:

* about half the board veterans seem to avoid multiple classes for their characters

* those that use multi usually only transfer once

* my own party has two multis (see below for details) Priest->Bishop->Alchemist and Bard->Rogue

General Principles:

* specialize and practice--this applies throughout the game, even (and perhaps especially) if you change classes

* plan changes--you don't lose much by switching for one level and switching back, but you don't gain much either

* it's a long time between levels after you leave the monastery, so it helps to have a plan and jot it down

Recommendations:

* switch to enhance a skillset (e.g. Mage -> Samurai continues Wiz spells and adds fighting abilities, Mage -> Fighter stops Wiz spell progression)

* do not switch to replace a skillset (don't Samurai -> Valkyrie b/c you aren't happy w/Samurai skills; too few skills overlap)

* don't switch to a hybrid/elite class after about L12--the XP requirements will hobble level ups

* switching from hybrid/elite to a specialist class late in the game has distinct advantages: you retain skills in important areas, but you reduce your XP costs (and you can switch back again)

* don't switch to classes that need high levels after the monastery, e.g. gadgeteer, ranger aren't very effective at low levels

* esp. for magic users, don't make every spell choice (buy or steal books often) to save them for advanced levels

Specific Suggestions:

* Bard -> Rogue at L18 -- L20.

Retains music, thieving ability and can start to be very effective close-up dagger fighter.

* Specialist spellcaster to Hybrid class at L2

(e.g. Mage->Samurai, Psionic->Monk).

Gives you two spells that you can practice from the beginning at little cost (you miss out on equipment, one easy level of fighting ability). Do this only if you want true hybrid (as opposed to, say, a fighting machine monk).

* Priest -> Bishop at L8-12

Gives you solid foundation of Priest spells, but you can begin adding offense (which is weak for a priest until late game). The sooner you switch, the more chance for offense you have sooner; the later, the more effective you priestly abilities.

* Priest -> Bishop (L8-10) -> Alchemist (L17-19).

Gives you the same Priestly foundation, allows you to continue building Divinity while at the same time establishing a foundation for Alchemy. Once you have enough Wiz/Psionics (and L6 or L7 priest spells), you can specialize in Alchemy. This gets you the Alchemy class bonus and reduces drastically your XP point requirements. (The trade off is you won't get high Level Wiz/Psionics)

* Valkyrie -> Fighter (L10) or Priest -> Fighter (L6)

either gives you some decent heal abilities, but giving you the all powerful Berserk ability

DETAILED INFO

Game Rules: Skills

* only the current class's special skills (e.g. Dispel Undead, Berserk) apply

* all ordinary skills are still useful

* some skills are 'closed' (if they aren't used by current class)--these do not grow w/practice and might not be as effective

Game Rules: Abilities & Skills

* some skills lose the bonus from the previous class (mage-> Bishop loses Wiz bonus)

* some skills lose effectiveness (a pure L6 Fighter really is a better fighter than a pure L6 rogue)

* some skills lose effectiveness (part 2: although your L5 mage becomes a fighter at L6, they are an L5 mage and an L1 fighter; they will fight about as well as a newly created L1 fighter with the same stats)

Game Rules: XP and Level Ups

This seems to confuse people the most.

* You only have one character level. That continues to grow every level up.

* You can have as many class levels as there are classes in the game.

* You start at L1 when you join the class (either at creation or switch). New levels as you remain in (or switch back to) that class.

* The XP required for you next level up is determined by two factors: your current *character* level (not class level) and the current class. (e.g. an L6 pure fighter needs an extra 16 kXP to reach L7. An L5 Bishop becomes a fighter at L6. They also need 16 kXP to level up. Their overall total XP will be different based on their past, but not the difference they need to go up.

-----signature-----

Tennessee Ernie Ford is the nom de web of the author of RPG websites, such as...

http://members.aol.com/tenernie

__________________________________________________ _________________


re posted by

V***V

[Merulus]

1. As sloucho said, as long as you meet the minimum stat requirements you can switch anyone to any class.

2. Essentially, each class has three sets of abilities: Their regular profession skills, their one “special” skill (which carries a 25% bonus), and their special abilities. The first two show up on the skills menu, the last shows up on the stats menu (under “abilities and traits”). The regular profession skills carry over when you switch classes. The special skill bonus and special abilities do not, however. So, for example: A fighter who switches to another class would lose his ability to berserk, his stamina regeneration, and his special bonus to close combat. He would retain any points in his various weapon and combat skills, though any skills that are not a part of his new class would not improve with use.

3. No. As above, the ranger would lose his special ability (the ability to search all the time). He would retain his scouting skill, but it would only work when using the search function (in other words, it would be almost useless).

4. Again, as sloucho said, “stealth” is a misnomer. The stealth skill is used for calculating a monk/ninja/rogue’s armor class bonus (their ability to dodge, essentially) and for calculating the likelihood of a backstab in the case of the rogue.

5. It works the same way as it did in the demo. The person who wrote that probably should have their computer taken away before they hurt themselves.

6. I think so. Our favorite game lists are pretty similar (though, for my money, System Shock 2 was a better game than Deus Ex… and I didn’t care for any of the infinity engine games). If you’re looking for a deep storyline and a huge world to explore… This isn’t it. If, on the other hand, you’re looking for in-depth character building and tactical complexity, this is a great game. I’m about to finish it for the second time, and I’ll probably play it again after.

[krayzkrok]

I won't add anything much to this, other than the game is definitley worthy of your financial investment. But a warning - it is insanely addictive and playing the entire game through two or three times is quite normal it seems. I'm still on my first, but it's taken me since December 20th to get to the endgame (probably 250 hours of playing).

I'm curious about the comment that the world isn't large. After the aforementioned 250 hours, I'm still exploring new areas (this time Ascension Peak), and was throughout the entire game. I do believe the gameworld is quite large enough. It often takes quite a while to traverse even one area, though, because of the number of encounters. Fortunately, encounters are immensely enjoyable and amongst the best part of the game - it never gets old seeing a marble golem collapse into a dozen pieces. [img]smile.gif[/img]

krok

[onomastikon]

Thanks folks that was very helpful.

OK, let's see if I got it right: there are "profession skills", "special skills", and "special abilities". The second dont carry over when multiclassing. The first improve with use, but only if the char is currently in that profession. Right?

So two chars of different classes (uh, I'm guessing here, say a Fighter and a Lord) might have the same exact traits in special abilites (say, chance to hit with a sword) at time T but one will get better with practice and the other won't. Right?

This explains why, in the demo, I my spellcaster has, say, 8 "points" in, say, "Mental", but increases the actual SP in Mental as time goes on even if I don't pump any more in?

I guess all of this is explained in the manual.

Here are some last questions for you:

Why do almost no people on this board talk of the cat-, dog-, and dragon races? Why do so many talk of all-faerie parties etc.?

Is playing a Ninja still fun if you can't sneak around? Is it still useful?

How does backstab work if you can'T sneak up behind an enemy? (*You* are really 6 people.)

Last question: would I be correct in assessing this game as a really, really good hack-n-slash adventure with many rpg elements?

ok thanks to you.

[ice3]

quote:

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Originally posted by onomastikon:
Is playing a Ninja still fun if you can't sneak around? Is it still useful?

---

The nijnja get a bonus in criticals, it can be use in melee or throwing attacks. I basically kills the ennemy in one blow, even if it has 2000 HP. It's like KenShiro ("The fist of the North Star"): "You are dead but you don't know it!", "Huh?", "I hit your vital point, in 2 seconds you'll explose". That's basically what is happening.

quote:

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Originally posted by onomastikon:
How does backstab work if you can'T sneak up behind an enemy? (*You* are really 6 people.)

---

You get axtra damage like in Baldur's gate.

quote:

---

Originally posted by onomastikon:
Last question: would I be correct in assessing this game as a really, really good hack-n-slash adventure with many rpg elements?

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Yes, a lot of hack and slash. But it's basically to improve your skills. And it's RPG because of the team and character management.

[krayzkrok]

Personally, I'd describe it more of an excellent CRPG with hack and slash elements. The main strength of this game is its complex character development, and then its tactical combat, wrapped together into a very polished whole with very non-linear gameplay (once you get out of the monastery).

I haven't explored the multi-classing myself, so I can't comment on that aspect. I preferred to hone the skills of each of my classes, although once you reach level 20 or 21 (endgame) they seem to peak. I'll explore this further in future games.

As for the "sneaking around" elements, you have to do this quite a lot for most of the game, as many creatures are somewhat more powerful than you are. However, you move as a whole party, not as an individual. Being a ninja doesn't make any difference if your lizard fighter is clomping around. Certain spells enhance this, such as Chameleon which makes your party harder to see. Some areas contain extremely tough creatures, and sneaking around is very nerve-wracking! I deliberately avoided learning the x-ray spell, for example, because for me it spoiled this tension to know where everything was.

Each character's strengths and weaknesses are most pivotal during combat, and secondarily (but importantly) during elements of world interaction such as conversations, searching, identifying objects, opening locks and disarming traps. So the ninja is better equipped to employ stealth and martial arts during combat, and may be better at picking locks when exploring.

As to the races, each race is better at certain professions than others (eg. higher initial intelligence, better resistances to magic, etc). A balanced party should contain several different races. For example, I have a Dracon Fighter, a Dracon Samauri, a human rogue, and faery mage, a Rawolf Priest and a human ninja. They are all valuable members of the team. When I play it again, I'll go for a psionic and a gadgeteer as well, which will mean using different races. Those who like all faery parties are masochists. Either that, or far better at the game than I am. [img]smile.gif[/img]

But it's the combat that really works - it's very tactical. You can try different strategies, and move around a lot to gain better positions. A favourite trick I employ is to cast an elemental, then sandwich the foes between us. When facing away from me, I get bonuses on attacking from behind. Some foes can be put to sleep or paralysed, leaving you to move into a better position to take on others.

These are just comments from someone who simply enjoys this game, so I defer to those who know a lot more about the technical aspects than I do.

krok

[Mage_77]

"If you?re looking for a deep storyline and a huge world to explore? This isn?t it."


Krayzkrok:


I think this quote by Merulus is correct, especially as ive played other RPG's that are 3-4x the size of Wiz8. (Everquest : Scars of velious *this is only an expansion to the Everquest games is atleast 2x bigger than W8 in world size*. The game itself Everquest & the expansions from memory there's 3 or 4 expansions available now makes Wiz8 seem miniscule to Everquest but then on the other side how often are you going to utilize all that world compared to that in Wiz8).


Admitedly the first time you play it will seem to be a big world since you are "learning" how to play it & where everything is. normally i can finish the game doing "almost everything" that can possibly done in-game in about 30-40hours, but then ive been through the game multiple times now.


Some of the rpg's out there are really huge in world size & anyone who's played them would understand the comment Merulus made about Wiz8 not having a huge world to explore.

[ 02-14-2002: Message edited by: Mage_77 ]

[Warhammer]

So two chars of different classes (uh, I'm guessing here, say a Fighter and a Lord) might have the same exact traits in special abilites (say, chance to hit with a sword) at time T but one will get better with practice and the other won't. Right?

Wrong. Both Lord and Fighters will improve their sword skill by practice. Even a mgae will improve his dagger skill by practice.


This explains why, in the demo, I my spellcaster has, say, 8 "points" in, say, "Mental", but increases the actual SP in Mental as time goes on even if I don't pump any more in?

Several reason for that:
Mental SP increase with the LEVEL of the character (all other things being equal)
Mental SP increase with the Intelligence attribute (maybe the Senses attribute too)
By improve the Mental Realm Skill either by practice or levelup you will gain Mental SP


Why do almost no people on this board talk of the cat-, dog-, and dragon races? Why do so many talk of all-faerie parties etc.?

Answer in the racial description in the manual. I personally have a mook, a lizard, a dog, a cat, a dragon and and elf in each of my parties.


Is playing a Ninja still fun if you can't sneak around? Is it still useful?

Thrown criticals, thieving skills, martial arts, the "stealth" skill, alchemy are all usefull, on the other hand Ninja have huge restrictions on armor they can wear,... your call


How does backstab work if you can'T sneak up behind an enemy? (*You* are really 6 people.)

All 6 people get bonuses if they hit an opponent FROM BEHIND.


Last question: would I be correct in assessing this game as a really, really good hack-n-slash adventure with many rpg elements?

Yes. The character development is nice too.


I loved Deus Ex, Planescape Torment, Fallout 1&2, Arcanum, Baldurs Gate

My favourite RPGs too. I would add Vampire The Masquarade to the list.