Build revamped - more comments welcome.

Gambleur · 02-12-2002, 02:11 PM

Thanks to all for the comments on the build strategy! Believe it or not, I have yet to finish the game [img]smile.gif[/img] Anyways, I spent a bit more time last night with the build I had before, but paying attention to the comments given by everyone. This is what I found:

* Yes, the bard being on the side of the party and facing north does, indeed, suck. I was wondering why on earth I was getting far more backstab hits against my bard once I shipped her to the sides..
* Yes, the priest does seem redundant. The Bishop and the Alchemist can handle the healing. For the first little while, the only healing spell you really need is Heal Wounds - you can never crank up the status cures fast enough so that you can use them with enough *oomph* to cure the bad status during combat. Of course, being able to get TWO dispels a turn against undead might be pretty strong..
* Who needs the other NPCs? Even though they are rather witty, they seem to do little more than suck up experience. Having 1 NPC essentially is a -14% penalty to all your characters EXP, having 2 is a -25% penalty. Are they worth it?

So, tonight, I'll be restarting (again - boy, I'm sure good at cleaning out the monastery levels fast! [img]smile.gif[/img] with the following party:

* Satchmo the Lizardman Fighter
* Adrian the Human Samurai
* Melissa the Human Monk
* Hannah the Hobbit Bard (either a Styx or an S Club 7 reference, depending on how old you are..)
* Toleadaux the Elf Bishop
* Gambleur the Human Alchemist

Changes I made based on the advice I got:
* Lord is now a Samurai. Since they have more offensive magic, getting stuck with a strong cursed sword will be less of a liability than the Lord. Can Lightning Strike and Bloodlust's Berzerk interact?
* Psionic turned to Alchemist. Yes, being able to cast spells while silenced will be strong [img]smile.gif[/img]

How do I used the Alchemist's "mixing" ability? Do I just combine unlike items? I'm too lazy to RTFM [img]smile.gif[/img]

* Priest dropped for Monk, who can add better front-line punch than the Monk. Allowing the bard to hide in the back will be better for her safety, as well as allowing for more points to be spent on non-combat skills. Plus, I've grown addicted to the quick fix of the "Identify Item" spell [img]smile.gif[/img]
* Bishop now studies from all three non-Alchemy schools.

Please bear in mind that I'm really, REALLY loathe to practice things to increase abilities. This is one thing that bugged me about Everquest big-time - pressing the "Sense Heading" button like a drum beat every 5 seconds. Eech.

So what should I be doing with the Bishop's level points?

* Satchmo will now focus on Axe with his level up points, since all the best swords go to the samurai, and the Monk needs no weapon - I assume I should be using martial arts with the Monk, right?? - and if it turns out that the swords I get are better than axes, I'll just use the swords and gain points in due time.

Any more comments?! Thanks to all for your help!

G.

Warhammer · 02-12-2002, 03:29 PM

Ok I'll try not to spoil you.

* Why not go for a second Bishop instead of Alchemist? Such a bishop can still mix potions and can still cast Alchemy spells while silenced *plus* all the stuff that make bishops so great.

* Since you loathe practicing, a 3-spellbook bishop will hamper you. Normally such bishops increase their realmskills by practicing and recasting their spells, which you don't like. On the other hand two two-school bishops will have 3 skill points per level to spend on their realm skills.

* Arguably, 4 of the top 5 weapons in the game are swords (the 5th one is defenetly not an axe). So I'd really go sword for the fighter too.

* I would defenetly *not* take any RPCs, 2 RPCs = -25% combat EXP for your main guys.

* As of how does Alchemy work. You can mix two potions to produce a better potion if they are mixable and if you have a high enough alchemy skill, same apply to some powders and bombs. Complete list of mixable stuff available on request. As I said works fine for non-alchemists.

Hope it helps.

Edited: On an afterthought you could start with an Alchemist if you will, but class change them either to a Ninja or to a Bishop at level 18. If you intend to go for a Ninja make sure to make him a Faery and make him practice staff and wands

[ 02-12-2002: Message edited by: Warhammer ]

Fantasm · 02-12-2002, 04:06 PM

Just a note about practicing...

You should make a distinction between needless practicing and useful practicing.

I, too, hate needless practicing very much...it seems totally out-of-game to me, and you will never see me inspecting a chest over and over again to raise lockpicking skill (OK, I did it once or twice before deciding I didn't like it

.

However, it is STILL possible to build a very powerful Bishop through what I call useful practicing. By this I mean, have your bishop cast a spell EVERY SINGLE TURN in battle. NO EXCEPTIONS. Even if there's one monster left and your fighter is chomping at the bit to turn him into a pile of goo, still have your Bishop get that last Frost spell or whatever off.

Likewise, ANY time that your samurai isn't within melee range, have him cast a spell to increase his magic. Even if all you have spell points for is a sleep spell against a Savant Guard. =) (that's why Bloodlust is the perfect weapon for samurais early on...no need of a bow because they have good offensive magic). These activities could still be considered practicing, but it's in a context that is useful and makes sense within the game world.

Without going out of my way any further than this, my level 17 Bishop has at least 80 in all 4 magic classes, and at least 85 skill level and at least 300 spell points in EACH of the 6 magic realms. I don't have any other pure casters (I find a bard and gadgeteer are too fun not to play), and she has handled all spellcasting duties wonderfully. Also, my Samurai is a pretty dang good wizard in his own right, and can cast level 7 fireballs with the best of 'em...

Bishops are hard to play early on, but once you hit level 10-12 or so, they simply rock...

Good luck!

Jem · 02-12-2002, 04:19 PM

If you want to start with an Alchemist, I wouldn't wait until Lvl 18 to change him to a Bishop or Ninja -- those two are both in the slowest leveling set as far as leveling up because they take more XP per level. If you want to give you alchemy a boost, I'd suggest changing to a Bishop around Lvl 5 or so.

As for the mixability of potions, I posted a list of what can be mixed and what level Alchemy is needed in the sticky thread for Wizardry Tips. It's on the current last page (Page 4, I believe).

Personally, I'd go for the two bishops to begin with since Warhammer is right that it goes faster with a two-school bishop because he doesn't have to spend all his points just in schools but can also put some into realms. There are different ways to split the schools but I like to make one of my bishops a bit more offensive, the other more defensive so I split mine Wiz/Div, Alc/Psi. Others recommend Wiz/Psi and Alc/Div.

Other than those two changes, I have to agree with much of what Warhammer said.

[ 02-12-2002: Message edited by: Jem ]

Gambleur · 02-12-2002, 04:48 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Jem:
There are different ways to split the schools but I like to make one of my bishops a bit more offensive, the other more defensive so I split mine Wiz/Div, Alc/Psi. Others recommend Wiz/Psi and Alc/Div.

Jem,

When I analyzed the spellbooks, I looked at what realms each school had, in an effort to maximize the value of having one character studying two realms. Basically, I wanted my bishop to pick two schools that had good spells in the same schools. Mage and Alchemy both have very weak mental and divine spells, so I made my bishop Wiz/Alc - and in this case, would make the other Bishop Psi/Div.

Does that seem reasonable? What justifications do others give for their breaking down the schools?

What do you think about only having one bishop, two utility and three fighter types? I was thinking that if you have a bishop in Div/Alc, then you could have a Samurai for Wizardry and a Monk for Psionics.

For the utility, you could have a Bard and a Ranger, and for your front line, add a fighter to the Samurai and the Monk?

Or do you need two dedicated spellcasters?

M.

sloucho · 02-12-2002, 05:09 PM

As others have already said, I guess you don't really NEED anything--not even one pure spellcaster. But in my opinion, having 2 casters really makes the game a lot more fun and 'playable' for most people. I went for an uber-party once upon a time, used an alchemist & 5 hybrid fighters to get me through the early stages, then cut the alchemist to replace him with another monk. No pure spellcasters were left, but by that time the others were casting spells pretty well.

My wife couldn't stand playing with that party because I insisted on taking advantage of every opportunity to tweak a magic skill (since, in the absence of a pure spellcaster, I really needed to). So she and I started the game over with a party that she wanted to be more 'playable.' As far as hassle-free parties go, it's really nice to have at LEAST 2 pure spellcasters so that by level 11 you can portal to a safe haven (say, Crock's shop) and then portal back to wherever you were in terms of your progress through the game. We ended up with an alchemist who converted to bishop after getting the essentials (read portal) and a mage who will probably remain a mage until she gets nuclear blast. Because I don't like lugging around all those instruments that bards use, I don't consider them fun to play, so we went with 4 fighter hybrids in the other slots: monk/sammy/valk/ranger.

The mage and alk/bish don't have the hitpoints that I'm accustomed to in my uber-party, but it's hardly as if they're having any trouble surviving. And the game with my wife moves worlds more quickly than the ones I play on my own.

[ 02-12-2002: Message edited by: sloucho ]

ratchild · 02-12-2002, 05:11 PM

I don't have any dedicated spell casters, and i'm doing just fine. I do have to practice spells every combat with my Sam, monk, lord and ranger. I don't have much in the way of buffs right now, but once i get a little further, i'll have gadgets and instruments to make up for that. and don't forget.... save those spell picks!

Warhammer · 02-13-2002, 02:30 AM

quote:
Originally posted by Gambleur:

Mage and Alchemy both have very weak mental and divine spells, so I made my bishop Wiz/Alc - and in this case, would make the other Bishop Psi/Div.

Does that seem reasonable? What justifications do others give for their breaking down the schools?

As for the specialisation of the two bishops in a two-bishop party there are basically two schools.

Some players go for bishops that have a maximum of spells in common realms, and made the same choice as yours. These bishops are better startesrs.

Some players go for bishops that have complementary spellbooks (strengths in different realms) such as Psionics (heavy on mental) / Alchemy (no mental at all). These are long term bishops, really powerfull at the end game.

If you have two bishops you really dont need a bard (the poor man's bishop).

Finally, you do not *need* 2 dedicated spellcasters:
A SAM-LOR-MON-VAL-NIN-RAN-party is very good, though not for beginners.

Mage_77 · 02-13-2002, 02:49 AM

Gambleur:

You actually hit the sense heading button in EQ?

Should have just linked it to the movent arrow keys so whenever you say turn'd around to your left it used sense heading at the same time.

MaskedFrog · 02-13-2002, 10:47 AM

In the end building a party is all about personal prefernce and playing style. From the plethora of parties posted on various boards you can see that party composition really does not matter. I am sure with the proper playing style you could complete the game with a party of all Faeries. I definitely recommend trying a party that sounds interesting and playing it for a while. If you find the party is not working for you either make changes or start a new part.

My first game I took a Valkyrie. Although this is a great class, I was regretting not having a Samurai. I started a new party with a Samurai and went through to the end of the game and thoroughly enjoyed it. I am now taking a break from wizardy to complete BG ToB and then I will start a new party with a different composition.

The main thing is to have fun playing.

02-12-2002, 03:29 PM	#2
Warhammer Baaz Draconian Join Date: December 4, 2001 Location: Denmark Age: 52 Posts: 731	Ok I'll try not to spoil you. * Why not go for a second Bishop instead of Alchemist? Such a bishop can still mix potions and can still cast Alchemy spells while silenced plus all the stuff that make bishops so great. * Since you loathe practicing, a 3-spellbook bishop will hamper you. Normally such bishops increase their realmskills by practicing and recasting their spells, which you don't like. On the other hand two two-school bishops will have 3 skill points per level to spend on their realm skills. * Arguably, 4 of the top 5 weapons in the game are swords (the 5th one is defenetly not an axe). So I'd really go sword for the fighter too. * I would defenetly not take any RPCs, 2 RPCs = -25% combat EXP for your main guys. * As of how does Alchemy work. You can mix two potions to produce a better potion if they are mixable and if you have a high enough alchemy skill, same apply to some powders and bombs. Complete list of mixable stuff available on request. As I said works fine for non-alchemists. Hope it helps. Edited: On an afterthought you could start with an Alchemist if you will, but class change them either to a Ninja or to a Bishop at level 18. If you intend to go for a Ninja make sure to make him a Faery and make him practice staff and wands [ 02-12-2002: Message edited by: Warhammer ] __________________ It was a new day yesterday<br />but it\'s an old day now.<br /><i>Jethro Tull</i><br />

02-12-2002, 04:19 PM	#4
Jem Zhentarim Guard Join Date: January 28, 2002 Location: Dallas, Texas Posts: 347	If you want to start with an Alchemist, I wouldn't wait until Lvl 18 to change him to a Bishop or Ninja -- those two are both in the slowest leveling set as far as leveling up because they take more XP per level. If you want to give you alchemy a boost, I'd suggest changing to a Bishop around Lvl 5 or so. As for the mixability of potions, I posted a list of what can be mixed and what level Alchemy is needed in the sticky thread for Wizardry Tips. It's on the current last page (Page 4, I believe). Personally, I'd go for the two bishops to begin with since Warhammer is right that it goes faster with a two-school bishop because he doesn't have to spend all his points just in schools but can also put some into realms. There are different ways to split the schools but I like to make one of my bishops a bit more offensive, the other more defensive so I split mine Wiz/Div, Alc/Psi. Others recommend Wiz/Psi and Alc/Div. Other than those two changes, I have to agree with much of what Warhammer said. [ 02-12-2002: Message edited by: Jem ] __________________ Jem :kitty1:

02-12-2002, 04:48 PM	#5
Gambleur Elite Waterdeep Guard Join Date: November 27, 2001 Location: Calgary, AB Posts: 12	quote: Originally posted by Jem: There are different ways to split the schools but I like to make one of my bishops a bit more offensive, the other more defensive so I split mine Wiz/Div, Alc/Psi. Others recommend Wiz/Psi and Alc/Div. Jem, When I analyzed the spellbooks, I looked at what realms each school had, in an effort to maximize the value of having one character studying two realms. Basically, I wanted my bishop to pick two schools that had good spells in the same schools. Mage and Alchemy both have very weak mental and divine spells, so I made my bishop Wiz/Alc - and in this case, would make the other Bishop Psi/Div. Does that seem reasonable? What justifications do others give for their breaking down the schools? What do you think about only having one bishop, two utility and three fighter types? I was thinking that if you have a bishop in Div/Alc, then you could have a Samurai for Wizardry and a Monk for Psionics. For the utility, you could have a Bard and a Ranger, and for your front line, add a fighter to the Samurai and the Monk? Or do you need two dedicated spellcasters? M.

02-12-2002, 05:11 PM	#7
ratchild Manshoon Join Date: January 7, 2002 Location: boulder, co Age: 46 Posts: 242	I don't have any dedicated spell casters, and i'm doing just fine. I do have to practice spells every combat with my Sam, monk, lord and ranger. I don't have much in the way of buffs right now, but once i get a little further, i'll have gadgets and instruments to make up for that. and don't forget.... save those spell picks! __________________ Freedom is the distance between government and religion

02-13-2002, 02:30 AM	#8
Warhammer Baaz Draconian Join Date: December 4, 2001 Location: Denmark Age: 52 Posts: 731	quote: Originally posted by Gambleur: Mage and Alchemy both have very weak mental and divine spells, so I made my bishop Wiz/Alc - and in this case, would make the other Bishop Psi/Div. Does that seem reasonable? What justifications do others give for their breaking down the schools? As for the specialisation of the two bishops in a two-bishop party there are basically two schools. Some players go for bishops that have a maximum of spells in common realms, and made the same choice as yours. These bishops are better startesrs. Some players go for bishops that have complementary spellbooks (strengths in different realms) such as Psionics (heavy on mental) / Alchemy (no mental at all). These are long term bishops, really powerfull at the end game. If you have two bishops you really dont need a bard (the poor man's bishop). Finally, you do not need 2 dedicated spellcasters: A SAM-LOR-MON-VAL-NIN-RAN-party is very good, though not for beginners. __________________ It was a new day yesterday<br />but it\'s an old day now.<br /><i>Jethro Tull</i><br />

02-12-2002, 02:11 PM	#1
Gambleur Elite Waterdeep Guard Join Date: November 27, 2001 Location: Calgary, AB Posts: 12	Thanks to all for the comments on the build strategy! Believe it or not, I have yet to finish the game [img]smile.gif[/img] Anyways, I spent a bit more time last night with the build I had before, but paying attention to the comments given by everyone. This is what I found: * Yes, the bard being on the side of the party and facing north does, indeed, suck. I was wondering why on earth I was getting far more backstab hits against my bard once I shipped her to the sides.. * Yes, the priest does seem redundant. The Bishop and the Alchemist can handle the healing. For the first little while, the only healing spell you really need is Heal Wounds - you can never crank up the status cures fast enough so that you can use them with enough oomph to cure the bad status during combat. Of course, being able to get TWO dispels a turn against undead might be pretty strong.. * Who needs the other NPCs? Even though they are rather witty, they seem to do little more than suck up experience. Having 1 NPC essentially is a -14% penalty to all your characters EXP, having 2 is a -25% penalty. Are they worth it? So, tonight, I'll be restarting (again - boy, I'm sure good at cleaning out the monastery levels fast! [img]smile.gif[/img] with the following party: * Satchmo the Lizardman Fighter * Adrian the Human Samurai * Melissa the Human Monk * Hannah the Hobbit Bard (either a Styx or an S Club 7 reference, depending on how old you are..) * Toleadaux the Elf Bishop * Gambleur the Human Alchemist Changes I made based on the advice I got: * Lord is now a Samurai. Since they have more offensive magic, getting stuck with a strong cursed sword will be less of a liability than the Lord. Can Lightning Strike and Bloodlust's Berzerk interact? * Psionic turned to Alchemist. Yes, being able to cast spells while silenced will be strong [img]smile.gif[/img] How do I used the Alchemist's "mixing" ability? Do I just combine unlike items? I'm too lazy to RTFM [img]smile.gif[/img] * Priest dropped for Monk, who can add better front-line punch than the Monk. Allowing the bard to hide in the back will be better for her safety, as well as allowing for more points to be spent on non-combat skills. Plus, I've grown addicted to the quick fix of the "Identify Item" spell [img]smile.gif[/img] * Bishop now studies from all three non-Alchemy schools. Please bear in mind that I'm really, REALLY loathe to practice things to increase abilities. This is one thing that bugged me about Everquest big-time - pressing the "Sense Heading" button like a drum beat every 5 seconds. Eech. So what should I be doing with the Bishop's level points? * Satchmo will now focus on Axe with his level up points, since all the best swords go to the samurai, and the Monk needs no weapon - I assume I should be using martial arts with the Monk, right?? - and if it turns out that the swords I get are better than axes, I'll just use the swords and gain points in due time. Any more comments?! Thanks to all for your help! G.

02-12-2002, 04:06 PM	#3
Fantasm Elite Waterdeep Guard Join Date: January 9, 2002 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 17	Just a note about practicing... You should make a distinction between needless practicing and useful practicing. I, too, hate needless practicing very much...it seems totally out-of-game to me, and you will never see me inspecting a chest over and over again to raise lockpicking skill (OK, I did it once or twice before deciding I didn't like it . However, it is STILL possible to build a very powerful Bishop through what I call useful practicing. By this I mean, have your bishop cast a spell EVERY SINGLE TURN in battle. NO EXCEPTIONS. Even if there's one monster left and your fighter is chomping at the bit to turn him into a pile of goo, still have your Bishop get that last Frost spell or whatever off. Likewise, ANY time that your samurai isn't within melee range, have him cast a spell to increase his magic. Even if all you have spell points for is a sleep spell against a Savant Guard. =) (that's why Bloodlust is the perfect weapon for samurais early on...no need of a bow because they have good offensive magic). These activities could still be considered practicing, but it's in a context that is useful and makes sense within the game world. Without going out of my way any further than this, my level 17 Bishop has at least 80 in all 4 magic classes, and at least 85 skill level and at least 300 spell points in EACH of the 6 magic realms. I don't have any other pure casters (I find a bard and gadgeteer are too fun not to play), and she has handled all spellcasting duties wonderfully. Also, my Samurai is a pretty dang good wizard in his own right, and can cast level 7 fireballs with the best of 'em... Bishops are hard to play early on, but once you hit level 10-12 or so, they simply rock... Good luck!

02-12-2002, 05:09 PM	#6
sloucho Elite Waterdeep Guard Join Date: February 10, 2002 Location: Philly Posts: 40	As others have already said, I guess you don't really NEED anything--not even one pure spellcaster. But in my opinion, having 2 casters really makes the game a lot more fun and 'playable' for most people. I went for an uber-party once upon a time, used an alchemist & 5 hybrid fighters to get me through the early stages, then cut the alchemist to replace him with another monk. No pure spellcasters were left, but by that time the others were casting spells pretty well. My wife couldn't stand playing with that party because I insisted on taking advantage of every opportunity to tweak a magic skill (since, in the absence of a pure spellcaster, I really needed to). So she and I started the game over with a party that she wanted to be more 'playable.' As far as hassle-free parties go, it's really nice to have at LEAST 2 pure spellcasters so that by level 11 you can portal to a safe haven (say, Crock's shop) and then portal back to wherever you were in terms of your progress through the game. We ended up with an alchemist who converted to bishop after getting the essentials (read portal) and a mage who will probably remain a mage until she gets nuclear blast. Because I don't like lugging around all those instruments that bards use, I don't consider them fun to play, so we went with 4 fighter hybrids in the other slots: monk/sammy/valk/ranger. The mage and alk/bish don't have the hitpoints that I'm accustomed to in my uber-party, but it's hardly as if they're having any trouble surviving. And the game with my wife moves worlds more quickly than the ones I play on my own. [ 02-12-2002: Message edited by: sloucho ]

02-13-2002, 02:49 AM	#9
Mage_77 Manshoon Join Date: February 12, 2002 Location: Melbourne, Australia. Posts: 151	Gambleur: You actually hit the sense heading button in EQ? Should have just linked it to the movent arrow keys so whenever you say turn'd around to your left it used sense heading at the same time. __________________ <p><br /><b>Dont believe everything your told - Sleep IS Over-rated.</b>

02-13-2002, 10:47 AM	#10
MaskedFrog Drow Warrior Join Date: November 28, 2001 Location: Madison, CT Posts: 292	In the end building a party is all about personal prefernce and playing style. From the plethora of parties posted on various boards you can see that party composition really does not matter. I am sure with the proper playing style you could complete the game with a party of all Faeries. I definitely recommend trying a party that sounds interesting and playing it for a while. If you find the party is not working for you either make changes or start a new part. My first game I took a Valkyrie. Although this is a great class, I was regretting not having a Samurai. I started a new party with a Samurai and went through to the end of the game and thoroughly enjoyed it. I am now taking a break from wizardy to complete BG ToB and then I will start a new party with a different composition. The main thing is to have fun playing.

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