Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser

[Attalus]

Recently, I have been re-(re-re-re)reading the Fritz Lieber novels featuring Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, and have been struck at how much of DnD is based on them (and Tolkein, of course). Lankhmar is the obvious model for any of the teeming, corrupt cities in BG I& II. The Grey Mouser is the archetypal Thief, along with the wonderful but less realised ones in Lord Dunsany. Conan is Fafhrd's spiritual father, but he is much less invulnerable and cerebral. I had also forgotten, in about 10 years neglect, how funny they are in places, and how erotic without being obnoxious about it like Ed Greenaway. Has anybody else read them?

[Sir Exxon]

<font color="gold">I cant recall reading any book like that.
Is it any good?

PS. Fafhrd? Someone has had a good time making up names!!! : [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img] </font>


see ya!

[Attalus]

Sir Exxon, do you remember the password for the Thieves Guild in Baldur's Gate? Fafhrd. It was an in-joke. Yes, they are superb. I first read one in 1970, when Ace started re-releasing them.

[Albromor]

Yes, these are excellent reads. I re-read my ancient ACE edition paperbacks (I got them all) a year ago. Leiber was a wordsmith extrodinair and if you ever get to read other works by him by all means do so. As for D&D being based on his works this is so very true. Of course, as has been mentioned, Tolkien was a major influence. Jack Vance's magic system from his Dying Earth series was also adopted. Then there is R.E. Howard's Conan series that was also a major influence (it is Howard who came up with Frost Giants). Basically D&D is a conglomeration of many writers. Gygaxx was not nearly as creative as he would have us believe.
And speaking of Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, their main residence of the city of Lankhmar was the inspiration behind the now defunct Judges Guild's D&D supplemental product entitled The City State of the Invincible Overlord. It was a great product and if you ever read the books and saw this map you'd swear you were looking at Lieber's description of Lankhmar.

[Attalus]

Good post, Albronor. I just realised that Lieber also invented the Thieves Guild, much more impressive than the Shadow Thieves. Ill Met In Lankhmar is one of the best in the series, and the deaths of Vlana and Ivrian as heartbreaking as anything that I have read in Fantasy fiction. I also appreciate the terse and economic style, doubtless necessitated by the fact that they were originally written for pulp magazines, which paid by the word, and whose parsimonious editors would not tolerate anything in the way of padding. The bloated trilogies of today would really benefit from such cutting. One of the worst things that Allen, Unwyn did was to persuade J.R.R. Tolkein to issue LOTR as a trilogy, instead of in six volumes as originally planned.

[khazadman]

actually tolkein wanted to release LotR in a single volume.you can find some of the special single volume editions in the book stores,i have one myself.

[Attalus]

Yes, Khazadman, I have had the red-leather one for 22 years, and have read it more than 35 times. Tolkein's original Plan was to release six books:The Return of the Shadow, The Fellowship of the Ring, The Treason of Isengard, The Two Towers, The War of the Ring, and, finally, The Return of the King. See The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkein ed.,Humphrey Carpenter (Houghton Miflin, 1981). I'm sure that you have noticed that each individual volume is divided into two Books, often quite different in subject. But, you are right, there certainly was a plan to issue it in a single volume, then two.

[ 03-08-2002: Message edited by: Attalus ]</p>

[Memnoch]

The City of Greyhawk (the entire world of Greyhawk, as a matter of fact) is based loosely on the atmosphere of Fritz Leiber's books. Read some of Gary Gygax's earlier books (the Gord series) and you'll see what I mean.

[Saltheart Foamfollower]

Has anyone read the latest instalment of the series. Granted it was not written by Leiber, but his estate sanctioned and authorized this book. I wish I could remember the author's name. I believe the author who wrote this book is a woman, and I just can't remember her name right now.

Other than that, the stories are incredible. A few of them are a bit pushing the limit of possibility, but Leiber developed quite an universe and two very enjoyable 'heroes'...

[jabidas]

some of the storys were great, others were not at all.

Ill met in Lankhmar is briliant, the one in Quarmall is a great laugh. However the last few as in the Farewell book were not great.

Yeah they did influence it hugely, also on the scale that neither Fafhrd or the grey one dominated their world just like most adventurers. There was no one be all and end all dark lord of utter destruction, there were lots of them and it was more normal.

There are stats for the, the mouser is a level 20 theif, level 5 wizard and 13 warrior. Fafhrd is a 20 ranger 5 bard and i forget the thief rating. Anyway it was second ed.