Quest Farming...

[robertthebard]

We need to have a system that takes quest items that aren't turned in when PC's log out. I bring this up since I have gotten to lvl 13 several times to find quests already done, but no-one doing them. What I see happening is people taking lvl 40 chars, doing the quests, and then transferring the items to new/newer chars of theirs for the easy xp. XP is easy enough, figuratively speaking, w/out having to cheat other players out of the quests. A lot of players work hard to get there, only to find that there is nothing to do. There is a system in place for the Hellball wands, and rings of harm, would it be too hard to add the quest items to that list as well?

[Mozenwrathe]

From how the script works, it removes one instance of that particular item from your inventory. I know this because I usually purchase around ten to fifty of the Rings Of Harm depending on the character. I like having a few of them for the characters I know have harder times inflicting damage on their opponents. If the quest items were added to that list, it would still only remove one (1) of the particular item from the character's collection each time they logged in - fresh server or not. So for some of my characters where I might have three or even five Hands Of Bane collected for no really good reason, it would still only remove one of them for every time I logged in.

The problem with this is two-fold: some of the opponents respawn after a certain amount of time (such as the Cult Of The Dragon Wizard) making it possible for multiple people to get the item for the quest, and if you have completed the quest once, there is no real desire for you to try that challenge again if there isn't something of value accessible at the end of it. Well, that is the way I see it. One of the reasons I have that neverending issue with some of the dragons. If you have the script remove the item, that's all fine and good, but you can always go into a newly restarted server and do the quest before anyone else gets a chance to. Then all you need do is wait long enough and do the quest again, giving you two of the items.

Perhaps if there was another way to "dispose" of surplus quest items? It would give those players who have already done the quest a reason to go after the same opponents, but give them an alternate route to gain something out of it aside from what XP the regular encounter gives them. That way, the quest itself would remain intact for players who could actually use the XP with the characters they are using at that moment. One could use "the honour system" but then you'll have people (such as myself) who'll just avoid certain areas altogether. If for no other reason, I won't really have much to get out of it. (That would be mainly for the lower level quests. The higher level quests usually do give the player an opportunity to snag some nice gear without having to trigger or complete the quest itself - just fight the opponent.)

Another route would be to have the script remove all instances of the "offending items." The problem with this is for players who do require more than one of the item in order for it to be effect (such as the Rings Of Harm), that leaves us quite out of luck with the hard work we put in to get the cash to BUY those items. The issue then would be for the script to remove all the PLOT items from a character's inventory in one sweep, no matter how many instances there were of it there. That would leave the script's regular sweep intact. Come to think of it, aside from the Ring Of Harm (five times per day usage) and the Wand Of Hellball, what other items are actually targeted by that script?

[ 01-07-2007, 02:01 AM: Message edited by: Mozenwrathe ]

[Unglaublich Verwustung]

Couldn't it just work like the quest to kill drow for Durnan - as far as I know that one is available to anyone who talks to him (even if you can't get the insignia because someone has already taken them - is it possible to get them to respawn after a set time?).

That way, as long as you personally haven't spoken to him within the current server reset you should be able to do the quest.

Not sure on this as I don't knwo tha answers for certain - more just thinking it through.

[robertthebard]

Right now, as far as I can tell, the variable is set on the NPC for some of the quests, such as the Hand of Bane, and Ves'Taki. This means that the quest can only be done once per load, which is all good, when we are in in a big party. Ideally, if the variable were set on the PC, and all characters in party at the time, then for quests where the object will be respawned, such as Lester, non partied chars could do the quest.

Moz, the reward for doing a quest is turning in the item. This, there's nothing in it for me mentality isn't what's going on as much as, I know my new char can't do this quest, but I want them to get the xp, so I'll do the quest with this char, and bag up the quest item, and pass it to the new char, so that all they have to do is talk to the quest giver twice.

Believe me when I say it's not always about the XP. I like to do some of the quests to check my build. Want to know how good you may or may not do against Merca in the Proving Grounds? Take on Grytelsa, and her buddies. The problem is, when somebody logs in, flies down to 13, does the quest, but doesn't finish it, and then shoots back up and passes the item to a new char, everybody that is working their way towards that quest is screwed.

This is a subject that really gets to me; why people feel like they have to cheat everybody else out of the experience of actually doing the quests. Maybe I'm just being an asshole about it, but I don't care. I still have DM responsibiliies on another server, from time to time, and if I catch players doing that kind kind of thing, I'll put them in Jail. The jail on that server is a cut scene, and the only way out is to restart your computer. The char in question is stuck in jail until the next server reset, which is daily, since we have a reloader device that can be used by DM's to reset the server if need be.

[Mozenwrathe]

Given the variables involved for a good answer, I decided to quote two messages within the same post. Not often do I do this, but the actual thought processes within each post are solid as far as I am concerned. As you all know, I am all about "stuff." XP can be gained through numerous means, but really good items are normally only acquired through doing the quests or slaying powerful enemies. Anyone who has gained a nice item via a donation or through Durnan's (or another store) has benefitted from the hard work of another. So what I was proposing initially was another way for those people who want to do the quest for some of the not be penalized. Of course, the problem would always be those quest plot items falling into hands that didn't necessarily need them.

Unglaublich Verwustung reminded me of this minor move but brilliant idea: Couldn't it just work like the quest to kill drow for Durnan - as far as I know that one is available to anyone who talks to him (even if you can't get the insignia because someone has already taken them - is it possible to get them to respawn after a set time?). That way, as long as you personally haven't spoken to him within the current server reset you should be able to do the quest.

Not sure as to how much work that would involve, but it does seem like quite the valid move. If nothing else, it would prevent "quest farming" from killing the XP gains for everyone on the server. In theory it does sound easy enough, and it would make for less reset requirements when it comes to quests. With that idea in mind, you could even propose new quests based on recurring monsters which leave behind plot items already. (A second beholder quest, a rakshahsa quest, a dragonslayer quest, and a zombie quest all come to mind.)

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Now, robertthebard read Unglaublich Verwustung's post and shot off this letter which I gleaned more information from: Right now, as far as I can tell, the variable is set on the NPC for some of the quests, such as the Hand of Bane, and Ves'Taki. This means that the quest can only be done once per load, which is all good, when we are in in a big party. Ideally, if the variable were set on the PC, and all characters in party at the time, then for quests where the object will be respawned, such as Lester, non partied chars could do the quest. Moz, the reward for doing a quest is turning in the item. This, there's nothing in it for me mentality isn't what's going on as much as, I know my new char can't do this quest, but I want them to get the xp, so I'll do the quest with this char, and bag up the quest item, and pass it to the new char, so that all they have to do is talk to the quest giver twice. Believe me when I say it's not always about the XP. I like to do some of the quests to check my build. Want to know how good you may or may not do against Merca in the Proving Grounds? Take on Grytelsa, and her buddies. The problem is, when somebody logs in, flies down to 13, does the quest, but doesn't finish it, and then shoots back up and passes the item to a new char, everybody that is working their way towards that quest is screwed. This is a subject that really gets to me; why people feel like they have to cheat everybody else out of the experience of actually doing the quests. Maybe I'm just being an asshole about it, but I don't care. I still have DM responsibiliies on another server, from time to time, and if I catch players doing that kind kind of thing, I'll put them in Jail. The jail on that server is a cut scene, and the only way out is to restart your computer. The char in question is stuck in jail until the next server reset, which is daily, since we have a reloader device that can be used by DM's to reset the server if need be.

The "Jail" thing seems like a fairly harsh thing to do, but if the server only reloaded once per day, "quest farming" would be a far more severe action. Since this server reloads every time there is nobody on the server after a small period of time, an action such as "Jail" would be a little harder than necessary. On servers such as yours where there are a lot of people who depend on those quests being available for their characters, one person going around and snatching them all up would have more impact than on Escape From Undermountain. That, and you'd have to have someone on with DM capabilities all day to prevent hardcore quest-thievery.

I'll freely admit I've done the "pass-back" routine for quests. That was when there was nobody online for at least thirty minutes so the server would reset itself before anyone could be affected. With how busy the server has been now, I wouldn't try that. Why? Because I know as a fact the server won't reset as often due to the resurgence of it's popularity. (Never a bad thing that, I must say.) So for me, I don't mind NOT sliding back quest items any more. I just wish there was something else I could do with them after I've acquired them.

Much like yourself, I believe the idea Unglaublich Verwustung's put up here has significant merit. It would allow those who WANT to do the quests either as individuals or as groups to do so freely. It would not require the server to reset, as the creatures themselves respawn already (such as the Drow Proving Grounds and the Beholders inside of Level Eleven - The Underground Desert). It would still prevent players from gettng the same XP from the quest multiple times while allowing for multiple completions of the quest itself.

[ 01-07-2007, 08:52 AM: Message edited by: Mozenwrathe ]

[robertthebard]

While you may find the jail idea harsh, it also went a long way towards stopping the children, or childish players, from killing NPC's that weren't meant to be killed.

As to what to do about the quests; the variable that is currently assigned to NPC's such as Ben, and Delundir could be set to the PC that talks to them, and subsequently to the Party members. This isn't a lot of work, but could be a pain in the ass. The easier thing is to have players think about all the other players that are wading through lvl 8, for example, trying to get to the lower reaches. For example, I plopped in the other night, and jumped down to the bottom, while in party, and did a lot of the quests to help the players on the "higher" levels cut the number of deaths that they may experience on the way down. The end result is the same, as the quests are done, and not available, but at least the players that were in party reaped the benefits. The farming I am discussing totally shuts the quests off from the other players, and is really unfair to those that have to work to get to them. A little respect, if not comaraderie, for other players in the game, and I don't think that's too much to ask for.

[Mozenwrathe]

Originally posted by robertthebard, whom I should remind you all I have the utmost respect for: While you may find the jail idea harsh, it also went a long way towards stopping the children, or childish players, from killing NPC's that weren't meant to be killed. As to what to do about the quests; the variable that is currently assigned to NPC's such as Ben, and Delundir could be set to the PC that talks to them, and subsequently to the Party members. This isn't a lot of work, but could be a pain in the ass. The easier thing is to have players think about all the other players that are wading through lvl 8, for example, trying to get to the lower reaches. For example, I plopped in the other night, and jumped down to the bottom, while in party, and did a lot of the quests to help the players on the "higher" levels cut the number of deaths that they may experience on the way down. The end result is the same, as the quests are done, and not available, but at least the players that were in party reaped the benefits. The farming I am discussing totally shuts the quests off from the other players, and is really unfair to those that have to work to get to them. A little respect, if not comaraderie, for other players in the game, and I don't think that's too much to ask for.

As I said, for the server you run such a punishment isn't that harsh in relation to the short- and long-reaching effects it has on other players. If the server here only reset once per day, I would understand using a similar concept here. Technically, we can reset this server at will, so something a little less drastic (which you did suggest quite a few options for) is more in order.

I understand how you would prefer if we could use a more "honour system" concept here. It makes sense, as usually most of the regular players will ask if anyone wants in on the XP and gold gains from various quests. My thing was wanting something else available for those who want to technically DO the recurring questcreatures, but not want to cash in the items and thereby ruin the quest for other people. I normally use Delundir's quest ("The Hand Of Bane") as a reference point as most people know it. Sure, you now have this undead hand after killing a spell-flinger. What do you do with it now? You don't want to ruin the quest for everyone else (as that's mean to them) but you did earn something from it. That's my angle on it. I do like the OnEntry script idea for removing a copy of the plot and quest items to prevent cache-farming, but if I have something in hand (even if it is a Hand Of Bane), I want to be able to get something for it. The problem is, as always, what the heck else IS there to do with a quest item?

I am, however, in complete agreement with you in terms of there not being a dire need to farm the quests. Sure, it's a quick boost, but with the right work you can still get your levels relatively swiftly within the Undermountain. Come to think of it, why not feed all the "extra" quest items to Choc? (Okay, maybe not Choc. Perhaps some new and similar creation somewhere within the Undermountain.) Using a similar script, the new creation (probably a demon collection agency - no, they don't collect demons!) would dole out a set amount of XP for every quest item cashed in. I'd say 1000 XP, same as Choc. Maybe 2000 XP, but not more than 3000 XP. I like the 1000 XP setup though. It's more than killing the creature itself gets you, and it's essentially free XP.

[robertthebard]

Here's the kicker; you get the xp from killing the wizard, you get his stuff, which is nice enough, even if you are going to sell it. You don't want to turn in the hand? Leave it for somebody else to pick up. This gets away from what I am griping about however. I am talking about people who deliberately go to the bottom and suck up the quests. Even if there are 8 players working their way to the bottom. Frankly, I find this just plain rude. If the server is empty, but for you, no big deal, but when the place is rocking, stand down. In the long run, it affects everybody that's trying to get anything done.

[Greything]

I do swap equipment a lot but I have never actually thought of quest farming.

I can't see the point anyway. If you have a character capable of reaching the levels where the quest is then, to my mind at least, that character is probably capable of doing the quest for themselves.

Robert's point about jumping ahead of other characters and sucking up the quests is a difficult one. I don't think it is unreasonable for a level 25 -30 character with transportation stones to do this to boost XP - particularly if the quests had not been available on a previous trip.

I usually offer the XP if others are on the server. Others may not. If it annoys then Unglaublich Verwustung's ideas seem to offer a way forward.

[robertthebard]

Oh, it's one thing to do the quests w/out sharing, if the quests are being done, it's another thing to do everything but hand in the quest item, and then log out to give the item to a lower level character in your stable that may or may not be able to do the quests. Party play, while encouraged, is not required. I'm not pushing for that.