Things "Good" wouldn't do...spoilerish

[theGrimm]

I'd like to present some moral dilemmas which are things which I often did and took for granted and which I believe a

roleplaying "good" player wouldn't do.

SPOILERS AHOY...
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SPOILERS AHOY...

By "good" I mean generally a character who puts others before himself, is honorable, honest and trustworthy, IN THE CONTEXT

OF THE SITUATION. Therefore working with thieves, while traditionally not good, is more making the best of a bad situation

more than being evil.

Obviously, my suggestions are open to lots of personal interpretation, but that could be interesting. I'd like to hear

whether you agree or disagree, and upon what you base your decision of you disagree...and if you can think of others...I

haven't player the latter half of the game in a while.
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Robbing the Graveyard

A good character might enter the crypts (say, looking for bodhi), and when confronted by guardians, kill them off (either self defense or to rid the world of a dangerous creature)...but would a good character rob the graves? Seems scaly to me.
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Robbing Nalia blind.

I may be wrong here, but I don't recall Nalia giving you permission to help yourself to the contents of her keep, unless perhaps she makes you Lord. Could a roleplaying good non-fighter have the FoA? There are some other such "dodgy" areas.

In converse, Valygar DOES give you dibs on the sphere...
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Killing Firkraag

Unless you've been given the task (whereby Firkraag may be deemed to have been judged guilty by a higher authority), a good character would not kill Firkraag. Good characters do not kill for revenge or cool items. Self defense or even "defense of the weak" is not an excuse either, since Firkgraag isn't picking on anyone by the time you can fight him.
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Killing that wizard for Edwin in the thief stronghold quests...even for a good thief.

I mean, killing one someone (regardless of alignment), based on the word of another evil someone? Even in the context of infiltrating an evil organization. (Even the dialogue kinda points this out.)
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Killing the group (with pooky) in the inn somewhere in Wakeens promenade

They only insulted you. "Murder" is hardly a fitting retribution.
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Killing the guy who stole Wellyns bear.

Satisfying, but see "Firkraag."
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Attacking the peasants in the circus tents.

At least, without casting detect evil on both Aeria and the peasants. See "Wizard Killing for Edwin."
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Korgans quest.

I mean, really. Reeks of evil. Even if you can gets past the whole graverobbing aspect.
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Right, I can't think of any more right now, but there must be LOADS...

P.S. Sorry if this has been done before, I haven't seen anything recent.

Cheers,
theGrimm

[Dundee Slaytern]

Originally posted by theGrimm: Robbing the Graveyard A good character might enter the crypts (say, looking for bodhi), and when confronted by guardians, kill them off (either self defense or to rid the world of a dangerous creature)...but would a good character rob the graves? Seems scaly to me.

Then don't do it.

Robbing Nalia blind. I may be wrong here, but I don't recall Nalia giving you permission to help yourself to the contents of her keep, unless perhaps she makes you Lord. Could a roleplaying good non-fighter have the FoA? There are some other such "dodgy" areas.

Have Nalia in your party, drop her off somewhere safe afterwards. Consider the loot as payment.

Dodgy though.

Killing Firkraag Unless you've been given the task (whereby Firkraag may be deemed to have been judged guilty by a higher authority), a good character would not kill Firkraag. Good characters do not kill for revenge or cool items. Self defense or even "defense of the weak" is not an excuse either, since Firkgraag isn't picking on anyone by the time you can fight him.

He ruined Garren, and kidnapped his child for laughs. What is to stop Firkragg from doing the same in the future?

Killing that wizard for Edwin in the thief stronghold quests...even for a good thief. I mean, killing one someone (regardless of alignment), based on the word of another evil someone? Even in the context of infiltrating an evil organization. (Even the dialogue kinda points this out.)

Then do not. So you piss off Renal Bloodscalp and lose a couple thousand of gold and XP, but the main plot will not be disrupted; and if you are a Thief, the loss of the Stronghold is a not a major issue.

Killing the group (with pooky) in the inn somewhere in Wakeens promenade They only insulted you. "Murder" is hardly a fitting retribution.

They attack you, depending on your response.

Killing the guy who stole Wellyns bear. Satisfying, but see "Firkraag."

Crikey, ask him for the bear.

Attacking the peasants in the circus tents. At least, without casting detect evil on both Aeria and the peasants. See "Wizard Killing for Edwin."

Talk to Aerie to be enlightened... ...

Korgans quest. I mean, really. Reeks of evil. Even if you can gets past the whole graverobbing aspect.

KORGAN is evilly-aligned. Why would a good-aligned character expect anything less from him????

[Illumina Drathiran'ar]

I always attack the guy who takes Wellyn's bear. Look at the options:

You ask for the bear and a child-killer goes free. You can't call the guards. He will probably do something like that in the future.

You kill him, bringing justice the law cannot. You avenge the death of a little boy and bring closure to a horrid ordeal.

Which is better? As for Firkragg, he's made Garren's life a living hell and by all accounts should pay for his crimes. A 'pleasant' villain is still a villain.
Though I could go either way on the Firkragg issue. Keldorn was enthusiastic about bringing Firkragg to justice, which should be a good indication of the path such an action would lead you down.

As for FoA, if it helps you save Nalia's keep, it's justifiable. Daleson mentions how he was trying to assemble the flail, which is an indication that it's there to be used, not to gather dust under a Roenall's rule.

Regarding Edwin's wizard-killing-quest, I am in quasi-agreement. The other subquests in the Mae'Var quest allow you to make 'good' or 'evil' choices, but this is murder. However, it's a Cowled Wizard... but then again, if Edwin wants him dead, he can't be all that corrupt, hm? He might be above bribing, or some such.

Now I present some cases of my own:
SPOILERS
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THE SILVER HORN: A good-aligned character really shouldn't be barging into the homes of strangers.

CELESTIAL FURY: See above... If only the quest had been implimented.

STAFF OF THE MAGI: This allows more grey area. You *were* sort of exploring, and the only to escape is to fight your way out, killing ancient evil in the process. But how do you justify getting in there in the first place?

RING OF GAXX: Again, here you are barging into strangers' houses. What *is* it with this party? You might detect a trap on a door and investigate, but a good-aligned character would NOT interact with a golden skull guarded by wards and that gives off a palpable sense of evil. Especially if you tell him 'no'... That's usally a test of one's true colors. Tell them no, and see how they react. Kangaxx threw a temper tantrum.

[Feral]

I think it depends largely on what kind of "good" you are. You're probably right, if you're thinking about lawful good characters - especially about the grave-robbing and executions. But what about other good alignments (which seems to be how Illumina is looking at things)? You can't tell me a CG character - in the BG world - wouldn't execute a child-killer or a dragon who set him up to kill paladins and take the fall.

If you look at things from a very strict LG perspective, you also wouldn't be going into people's homes at all unless you've been invited. Kind of makes the game short and linear, doesn't it?

[SixOfSpades]

As a rooty-tooty, Awfully Lawfully Good Plooty Paladin-Piper, I have observed the following tenets:

• Enter every building. My travels in the city of Baldur's Gate have taught me that Evil can be found in even the most innocuous of places, and what good is ridding the countryside of monsters when insidious vice spreads beneath our very feet?
• In the course of pursuing Point 1, explore every area (if the building is multistory), and kill all monsters. Talk to all citizens--being slightly touchy with those who failed their Detect Evil, and very polite to the rest. ALWAYS obey an implied command to leave the person's home.
• If no residents are at home, feel free to examine the contents of locked & trapped containers, just in case there may be suspicious evidence. Read all notes, Identify any unusual objects, and then put them back. If the bulding contained nothing but followers of Evil, of course, the whole place is yours to loot.
• All Thieves and similarly suspicious characters not employed by a prestigious organization of Good or Neutral alignment must die.
• Stealing, even from Evil Thieves, is a no-no. Stealing back items that were stolen from you, though, is quite all right (as long as you're robbing the same person who robbed you).
• Grave-robbing: See Points 1 through 4.
• Nalia's Keep: If you are are eligible for the Keep, all the stuff will become yours anyway, so no harm done. The game forces you to play out-of-character, though, as if you don't take the loot pre-emptively, you'll lose it forever. Oh, well. If you are not allowed to win the Keep, it would go to the Roenalls--and Nalia would ask that the party take everything of value with them, to keep the Roenalls from getting their grubby hands on it. Of course this works out best if Nalia remains in the party--if this is not to be the case, be sure to repay her by buying her lots of good equipment, and setting her up where she can form her own adventuring party if she so desires.
• Firkraag: He's an Evil Dragon who kidnaps people and destroys their reputations for fun. The Harpers deemed him enough of a threat to battle him in the past. He shows not even a hit of redemption, or remorse for his actions. If killing him ain't pest control, I don't know what is.
• Killing Rayic Gethras is neither Lawful nor Good. Of course, perhaps your Paladin had his ethics so strained by robbing a church (even a church of a CE god) that upon returning to the Docks, he simply adjourned to the Sea's Bounty to sink to the bottom of a guilty tankard while the rest of the party nicely leaves him out of the rest of the quest's activities. If they want to, they can let him handle the business with Marcus and Hentold in whatever manner he chooses, as a way to cheer him up.
• Mencar Pebblecrusher: "Watch it, dwarf, I'll not take your insults for long," is neither offensive nor an untruth. If he's got a brutality complex, so be it.
• Llyinis: Thievery is not okay. Murdering a child in the course of a burglary is *SO* not okay. Axe to the back of the neck.
• Korgan's quest: From what he says about the Book of Kaza, it's obviously a source of potential magical power, and necromantic power at that. Something like this could safely be left buried, but it seems the cat is already out of the bag--if the Book is going to fall into anybody's hands, it should be somebody who would use the power responsibly and well. If taking this quest will help you make sure that this Pimlico will not allow the Book to be used for Evil ends, then that's all well and good.
• The Golden Skull: Yep, talking to him gives some pretty clear indications that he ain't exactly Mary Poppins. Since the Shade & Elemental Liches clearly aren't the best guardians, a Paladin can either protect the bones in a more efficient manner (leave 1 set in the Planar Prison, and drop the other overboard Saemon's ship, for example), or simply dispose of this fellow altogether--although they would not wear the Ring of Gaxx, unless perhaps in dire need.

[Illumina Drathiran'ar]

Originally posted by Feral: I think it depends largely on what kind of "good" you are. You're probably right, if you're thinking about lawful good characters - especially about the grave-robbing and executions. But what about other good alignments (which seems to be how Illumina is looking at things)? You can't tell me a CG character - in the BG world - wouldn't execute a child-killer or a dragon who set him up to kill paladins and take the fall.

Exactly. NG and CG see the merit in handling justice themselves, when a vastly inept and unavailable law-enforcement force is unavailable or unable to do what you can. How the HELL is the state of Amn going to punish Firkragg? Huh? FINE HIM? TAKE HIS LAND? THROW HIM IN PRISON? RAISE HIS TAXES?!
He'd eat the soldiers, for they are crunchy and good with ketchup.
But if you are in the position to exact justice, so be it.

ANOMEN ROMANCE SPOILERS
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This is why I didn't like the Anomen romance... I had to be a good lover and encourage Anomen to follow the law... when it would be more like me and the characters I play to slip off during the night (since he's a filthy human and needs eight, not four, hours of sleep) and kill the bastard once we found out he had, in fact, killed Anomen's sister.
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Done..
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Of course, Six's cavalier-method of paladinship works as well... though I do think more people should order you to get out of their homes, I think. If I remember correctly, only a few do. There's the lady next to Cromwell's home... that's the only one I can remember that actually tells you to get out. And the Fentans sort of imply it.

[Feral]

Originally posted by Illumina Drathiran'ar: ... though I do think more people should order you to get out of their homes, I think. If I remember correctly, only a few do.

What really floors me is that most don't even seem to mind you taking their stuff while they're standing right there. I mean, I'd understand if, much later in the game when...

SLIGHT TOB SPOILER


... even Elmister is afraid of you, people were too scared by the child of Bhaal to speak up, but when you're, like, level 8 wearing studded leather armor and running around picking up zircon gems???

END of TOB SPOILER

Anyway, SixOfSpades - true to form - has come up with an excellent rationale/ization for exploring the game to its fullest. Hats off.

[Neomi]

I don't know SixOfSpades that well, but I thought I could pick up a hint of sarcasm in the reply. As though perhaps one could come up with a lawful-sounding rationalization for non-lawful behavior such as looting houses, etc that would clearly be unacceptable to a knight (and therefore failing to role-play true to one's class and alignment). I concede that the game doesn't always allow the flexibility to truly role-play (at *both* extremes, good and evil, mind you) but it doesn't require you to explore every container to finish, either.

Think about the way that Sir Lancelot would approach an evil pervading the land: Firkraag = dead. Wellyn's killer = hunted down and taken to the authorities or dead. Looting people's houses in the name of snooping around? Nah.

Oops, I forgot about the little detail about "sneaking around behind your king's back and sleeping with his wife while he thinks you've been completely chaste and loyal to him". Not exactly a stellar exemplification of a Lawful Good alignment, good Sir Lancelot. So just chalk up your misbehavior to the fact that we're all imperfect and sometimes we just need to work harder at being good!!!

[ 02-11-2004, 06:30 PM: Message edited by: Neomi ]

[Illumina Drathiran'ar]

Originally posted by Feral: quote: Originally posted by Illumina Drathiran'ar: ... though I do think more people should order you to get out of their homes, I think. If I remember correctly, only a few do.

What really floors me is that most don't even seem to mind you taking their stuff while they're standing right there. [/QUOTE]Well, the lady in the Docks calls the guard if you try and take her things. Shopkeeps in Athkatla do as well. Apparently the Trademeet militia has better things to do.

[Userunfriendly]

*Illumina wrote*
"Exactly. NG and CG see the merit in handling justice themselves, when a vastly inept and unavailable law-enforcement force is unavailable or unable to do what you can. How the HELL is the state of Amn going to punish Firkragg? Huh? FINE HIM? TAKE HIS LAND? THROW HIM IN PRISON? RAISE HIS TAXES?!
He'd eat the soldiers, for they are crunchy and good with ketchup.
But if you are in the position to exact justice, so be it."

of course, once you're inducted into the noble order of the radient heart, you're a duly accredited representative of the law...so you're required to kill neb, kill the teddy bear thief, whack firky...

must...resist...temptation...to...say...

"dead or alive, you're coming with me!"

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