Hell Trials opinions...

[Imrahil]

No SPOILERS given that you have completed SoA (& know the different rewards for the Hell Trials)...

...but

...just

...in

...case

...

I'm wondering which Hell Trial bonuses people tend to consider the "best", given the upsides & downsides (keep in mind the alignment switch if you choose *any* Evil paths). For instance...

PRIDE -
Good: +20% resistance to Fire, Cold, & Electricity
Evil: +200,000 XP

No contest, IMO - Good wins - XP is easy to come by, resistances are priceless. Even the items you get from the Dragon aren't that great (they are great, but...) when compared to the permanent resistance boost.

FEAR -
Good: immune to +1 and less weapons
Evil: +2 CON

The CON bonus is good, certainly, although probably useless to a non-Fighter PC (who probably already has 16 CON anyway). The Good reward, though, is priceless! Your average monster (which, granted, you rarely see in ToB) can't hurt you & now PfMW = complete invulnerability to weapons. The Cloak of Bravery isn't really even a factor here, IMO.

SELFISHNESS -
Good: +10% MR
Evil: +2 AC

This one is questionable, in that +2 AC is nothing to sneeze at, but in ToB you're biggest threats are magic-related, not melee-related. You probably already have an amazing AC (& if you're a non-Fighter, AC doesn't mean as much, so MR clearly wins). You do have to sacrifice 2 hp, 1 Dex, & 75,000 XP by taking the Good path, so this one is the most debatable by far (although only the -1 Dex really hurts & you can plan for it or offset it).

GREED -
Good: +2 to all Saving Throws
Evil: +15 hp

This one *may* be questionable, I suppose, but again, by the time you are through SoA, the biggest dangers are not damage-related, but spell-related (e.g. falling victim to Charm/Hold/etc. spells), so the ST bonus is more valuable than the hp bonus, IMO. You do get to keep Blackrazor, though, so that must be taken into consideration.

WRATH -
Good: +1 Wis & +1 Cha
Evil: +2 Str

Strength is almost insignificant, even to Fighters, given the number of Strength-enhancing items in the game. Wis & Cha aren't that useful to most classes either, though. You do get +1 to your primary attribute by taking the Evil path, though, so that may be reason enough to take the Evil path.

So, a good PC can come out with no alignment change (an important point to consider) & ...
+20% resistance to Fire, Cold, & Electricity
immune to +1 & lesser weapons
+10% MR
+2 Saving Throws
+1 Wis
+1 Cha
-1 Dex
-2 hp
-75,000 XP

A pure evil PC can come out with...
+200,000 XP
+2 Con
+2 AC
+15 hp
+2 Str
+1 primary attribute
several good items (Blackrazor, Time Stop scroll, Wail of the Banshee scroll, Robe of Evil ArchMagi, Cloak of Bravery, a few others)

Mixing & matching could come out with (an alignment change plus)...
+20% resistance to Fire, Cold, & Electricity [Good Pride]
immune to +1 & lesser weapons [Good Fear]
+2 AC [Evil Selfishness - taken mostly to avoid losses rather than gain rewards]
+2 Saving Throws [Good Greed]
+2 Str & + 1 primary attribute [Evil Wrath]
(you lose out on all the items this way, but not that big a deal)

Any thoughts?

- Imrahil

[Alson]

Interesting post! I agree with most of your conclusions. Still, comments abound.

SELFISHNESS - Good: +10% MR Evil: +2 AC This one is questionable, in that +2 AC is nothing to sneeze at, but in ToB you're biggest threats are magic-related, not melee-related.

Exactly. As an unfortunate side effect of BG2's (and probably AD&D's) "save or die" system, saves, immunities and resistances rule. Negative saves are easy to obtain - while Magic Resistance is priceless. It's a KO in Righteousness favor. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Trivia of the day:

You do have to sacrifice 2 hp, 1 Dex, & 75,000 XP by taking the Good path, ...

... actually, you don't. Just try casting Spell Immunity : Divination before opening the penalizing doors.

GREED - Good: +2 to all Saving Throws Evil: +15 hp This one *may* be questionable, I suppose, but again, by the time you are through SoA, the biggest dangers are not damage-related, but spell-related (e.g. falling victim to Charm/Hold/etc. spells), so the ST bonus is more valuable than the hp bonus, IMO.

I disagree. By the time your PC is in hell, your important saves should already be way below zero (-4 is reasonable enough) in any of the serious fights (were saves actually matter), so these +15 HP will come in handy more often.

And, of course,

You do get to keep Blackrazor, though, so that must be taken into consideration.

. Blackrazor is truly amazing. Don't underestimate it.

[SixOfSpades]

Originally posted by Alson: I disagree. By the time your PC is in hell, your important saves should already be way below zero (-4 is reasonable enough) in any of the serious fights (were saves actually matter), so these +15 HP will come in handy more often.

Ah, but all it takes is one little Greater Malison, and suddenly your Saves of -4 don't grant you immunity any more. 15 extra HP isn't going to make a donkey's fart of difference if you happen to get Held. And how many battles have you been in where 15 hp meant the difference between winning & losing?

[Rataxes]

+15 HP is much preferable if you're soloing or if you've given your PC all those nifty gadgets that gives save bonuses. A lvl 20+ player with Ring of Gaxx, Helm of Balduran, RoP +2, Cloak of Balduran and Amulet of the Seldarine is going to have saves near the -10 mark, and no GM or Save or Else spell in the world is going to make him tremble.

[Assassin]

Indeed, but getting that HP bonus to the PC doesn't really matter too much. Let me explain. In ToB, you'll probably splatter the trivial enemies. Against the better enemies, the 15 hp will be less than a roadblock. Getting that Saving Throw bonus allows you to free up that Ring of Protection +2 and give it to someone else. (okay, so you lose the AC bonus, but -2 AC is less of a worry than having a warrior on the frontlines with higher saving throws)

[ 04-05-2003, 09:46 PM: Message edited by: Assassin ]

[Rataxes]

15 HP does matter. If it didn't, you could with the same logic claim that those very small quantaties of life you gain after lvl 9 doesn't matter, because since when has an extra +3 HP ever saved anyone's life?

If you play with Tactics, items that give saving throws bonuses should exist in great excess, especially RoP's +2 seem to grow on trees once you've gone through the game with some of weimer's mods a few times. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Leslie]

And if you combine all those amulets into one (Amulet of Ilmater) - that's +3 to all saves.

AND if you use Foebane +5 then it's another +1 saves.

What do you think the best hell trials combination would be for an evil Barbarian ?

+2 STR ? (that would be +3, right ?)
+2 CON ?
+2 AC ? (Counting on THE CLOAK'S help )
Hmm - Blackrazor ?

[Dundee Slaytern]

Trivia of the Day:

Greater Malisons casted by the player do not stack, those casted by the Enemy Bosses do.

In lieu of this, Saving Throws bonuses are much more preferable to a measly 15 HP. The more bonuses the better.

The +3 per level only argument is flawed in that an average Warrior gets 3*31 HP, or +93 HP. This is much more beneficial than the +15 granted from the Nine Hells.

In addition, you do not lose any of your levelup HP irregardless of what you choose in the Trial of Selfishness, so it is a moot point in the end. Compared side by side, the Saving Throws bonuses will prove to be more helpful to you than the +15 HP bonus.

[Alson]

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: Greater Malisons casted by the player do not stack, those casted by the Enemy Bosses do.

If every second boss would've casted Greater Malison, this would have significance. Most bosses, however, don't cast Greater Malison. And if you don't find -8 or so (which you should be having by now) saving throws sufficient... buy some of those "+20 to saving throws" potions. Or Potions of Invulnerability (they stack!). Really, by the time you're in Hell, saving throws should be the least of your problems.

[Dundee Slaytern]

I have always preferred a healthy base number compared to depending on potions for combat prowness. Besides... not all classes have extraordinary saves.