Is anyone sick of war yet?

[Lifetime]

I supported the war on terror. I hailed America's actions in Afghanistan, I supported American intervention in desposing the Taliban with a passion. I had faith in America's policy in Iraq, even if I thought its reasons were shaky and that the war in Afghanistan wasn't even concluded. I had faith that we were doing the right thing, that we had the best of intentions (even though I know better). But this aiming of the political big guns on Iran is just too much. How does Powell know that young Iranians are dissatisfied with their political system and are aching for freedom? How does the USA think it can simultaneously bring peace and stability to 3 different and disgruntled Islamic nations at once?

There comes a point when you've got to question the difference between peacekeeping and warmongering. Just as Afghanistan started to lose steam, Iraq came up on the menu, and dear Bush decided to rid himself of the great family pain in the ass that is (or was) Saddam. Now Iraq's just about over, the shooting's stopped (for the most part.. or at least the TV coverage issn't on the shoeoting anymore. And that's all that people care about these days anyway..) and the smoke hasn't even cleared yet, and already the USA is griping about more weapons in Iran. I'm beginning to wonder how serious the USA really is about rebuilding the countries it so ably destroys in the name of peace. Are we really all about peace? Or are we satisfying an urge for violence on the TV?

The more I wonder about these things the more I'm beginning to think that this whole war on terror is a shameful and insincere excuse for the Bush government to pursue its own damn agenda. Where is the "better world" for the people of Afghanistan? Is the government simply trying to deflect attention from matters back home by putting up a big and expensive war on TV? The US accuses Middle Eastern nations of having nuclear weapons when it's debating to reintroduce production of low-yield nukes for self defence? What kind of defence are we talking about here? How are nukes in any way a defence mechanism? Nukes are WEAPONS of mass destruction. They're retaliatory measures. They're threats. They don't defend anything. How the USA expects to get away with this, I really don't have a clue. Apparently its okay to screw over the rest of the world and level the blame at others if you're big and rich and plain aggressive.

I'm still American according to my passport, and I used to think that meant something. I used to think that the elected government actually cared about freedom and peace. But this is too much. I've lost faith in that damn government. When we went to war in Afghanistan, I whooped for joy. When we started bombing Iraq, and when we threw Saddam out on his ass I was thankful someone was willing to do something long overdue. When the day after that the US accuses Iran of hiding nukes and supporting terrorists the first thing that involuntarily left my lips was "not again dammit!". Not the same damn excuse, not the same damn war. I'm tired of it, and I'm tired of America's constant warmongering. What next? We going to hit Korea too? I'll burn my passport and strand myself in Australia before I support any of that.

[wellard]

Originally posted by Lifetime: What next? We going to hit Korea too? I'll burn my passport and strand myself in Australia before I support any of that.

Good thoughtful post. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

Hey being stranded in Australia has not been a punishment for years [img]tongue.gif[/img]

No I’m not sick of war, I'm sick of the causes of war. Try to look at the positives. Afghanistan was undoubtedly good and so was the intervention in Bosnia/Slovakia. War is hell, but the causes behind it may sometimes be just.

[Davros]

I object ......

Not to the insightful and thought provoking post [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img] of Lifetime, but to the concept that you are stranded if you remain in Australia [img]smile.gif[/img] . Sure we got Little Johnny and Simple Simon and Fat Kim, but at least they are "mostly harmless". Besides - where else in the world do you get to see regular doses of Australian Rules Football [img]smile.gif[/img] .

On a more serious note - I also wonder if it is just not one huge rolling ball, and no-one really knows where it is going to stop.

Given articles I have read recently that are sourced one from Richard Butler and another from some CIA guy, the world credibility of the US on their intelligence on the WOMD issue is taking a battering. Tales of selective analysis, making the facts fit the case that Uncle George wanted to make, using unsubstantiated claims by disgruntled exiles / refugees as certain proofs. It's a pity that the paper never selected that article by Dicky B as one of the news items to stick on their website - I would have loved to provide a link for others to hear what he had to say.

The big questions that I have at the moment are what did we really know of Iraq's capabilities - how much evidence was verified - was the intelligence selectively doctored - why (by all appearances) were these claims of WOMD, these absolute certainties so very wrong?

Yes - I know I will get responses saying that the hunt is still on, that the doomsayers are talking crap and that GW and his administration are saints, who am I to be futher developing such spurious claims by even daring to give them the time of day.

At the end of the day, while some people will ardently leap to the administrations defence, they will truly know as little of the actual goings on as does my good self (which is of course blot, zip, now't, in fact - bugger all). Despite any debate that we could choose to wage - the truth is held by a few people in a tiny club with elite membership. We can only hope that the truth will come out one day - meanwhile I will go find a grassy knoll and practise my marksmanship - hold on - better make that my golf swing - that is a sport that I have the right equipment for [img]smile.gif[/img] .

[Attalus]

*Shrugs* The war was never primarily about WoMD, it was about the War on Terror and that Saddam was a terror sponsor. Like Wellard, I am sick of the causes. As for Iran, I have been reading of demonstrations against the government for months, and I doubt anyone can say that they aren't terrorism sponsors, given their ties to Hamas. I doubt seriously that the Administration is seriously planning war on Iran, but, yes, regime change would be highly desirable.

Originally posted by Lifetime: I supported the war on terror. I hailed America's actions in Afghanistan, I supported American intervention in desposing the Taliban with a passion. I had faith in America's policy in Iraq, even if I thought its reasons were shaky and that the war in Afghanistan wasn't even concluded. I had faith that we were doing the right thing, that we had the best of intentions (even though I know better). But this aiming of the political big guns on Iran is just too much. How does Powell know that young Iranians are dissatisfied with their political system and are aching for freedom? How does the USA think it can simultaneously bring peace and stability to 3 different and disgruntled Islamic nations at once?

Where did you do this? I don't recall ever seeing your name in the War forum.
Are you just trolling? In any event, Ziroc asked me not to post about war in the GD forum, so I suppose that it goes for everyone...No war talk in here please? (a request not an order, Im not a mod)

Edit: Note that WoMD were A reason not the only reason. The idea that Iraq had WoMD was acknowledged by the UN, By the Clinton Administration, by UNSCOM and later by the UN Inspection teams.....they just differ on what they think Saddam did with them.


[ 06-09-2003, 09:58 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Timber Loftis]

Side topic: WoMD in Iraq --
I sure hope these are found. However, *not* finding them will not put me out completely. Several of the weapons on record could not be accounted for by Saddam. Now, I find it exceedingly unlikely he destroyed the WoMD's without documenting it, since he can call every major newspaper to shoot him cutting up a half-dozen missiles. So, if WoMD are not there and are not found it means one of 2 things:
(1) Saddam/ someone else sent the weapons elsewhere (scary thought), or
(2) Saddam lied about what WoMD he had to begin with (and I have no pity for a man who is so full of lies to fall victim to his own lies -- serves him right). I know there is a big push to find these, and I know it's important to Bush, but because of these reasons I listed, I think we're all missing the point, which is "whether the US reasonably believed the weapons were there."

Back OT --
Yes, I am sick of war. Iran is unfinished business like Iraq. US troubles with Iran lessened significantly after the US backed Saddam in the long Iran/Iraq War. Now that Iraq, Iran's nearest enemy, is gone, less pressure is on Iran and it has plenty of time to muck around in its neighbors affairs.

That said, let Iran alone for a bit -- within 10 years, we're likely to see a great lessening of the power of the clerics to dominate the country.

[Leonis]

Lifetime - check out a book called 'Rogue State' by William Blum.

[Melusine]

Originally posted by MagiK: Where did you do this? I don't recall ever seeing your name in the War forum. Are you just trolling?

What has posting in the war forum have to do with it? If Lifetime didn't post about the above in the war forum, does that mean he never had those opinions?
What a strange way of looking at things... I post therefore I have an opinion?
I simply took Lifetime's statement of "I hailed the war of Terrorism etc" as meaning to say he supported the war on Terror, in words, in his head, but not necessarily on this forum.
Maybe he never alluded to it on Ironworks, as I haven't seen him around in a while (though I do think I remember him being around during the aftermath of 9-11 and being supportive of the war on terror then - and since the "War Forum" was created back then, he DID post on it). But even though he didn't express the above sentiments on the War forum, I'll take his word for it that he felt them. I don't see him trolling either, BTW. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Edit: Note that WoMD were A reason not the only reason. The idea that Iraq had WoMD was acknowledged by the UN, By the Clinton Administration, by UNSCOM and later by the UN Inspection teams.....they just differ on what they think Saddam did with them.

This is not the first time you admonish someone for breaching the subject of the war, tell them Dan said not to discuss it, and then proceed to add in your own thoughts anyway. If there really is to be no discussion on the subject, and especially if Ziroc told you this in person, you should be the first to refrain from any comments on the topic. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Melusine [img]smile.gif[/img] in answer to your first question I say...READ my first question...it's right there in the first 5 words. I requested information from him...I notice all you are doing is complaining about my questions...did you add anything of value to the discussion? Personally I would like to read some of the Pro-Bush and Pro-War vocalisations of Lifetime so would like to know where he posted them.

In answer to the second question. I passed on a request made by Dan and did my duty as responsible member of this forum. That duty having been discharged I made my statements since I did not "Start" the thread, I did not think Dan would censure me for replying to the post in a thread that so far no mod has shut down.

As I see it....I did nothing wrong and you are acting like the school crossing guard here. I am comforted that I will always have you here to keep me in line [img]smile.gif[/img]


[ 06-09-2003, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

[Ziroc]

I have asked that no war related posts to be made in Gencon. Closing.