Penn & Teller Do it again!

Man I can't tell you how much I enjoy their new Showtime series "Bullshit!". Last nights episode had them completely debunking, Reflexology, Chiropractic, Magnetic and other so called "medical", scams.
They really showed exactly why you cannot rely on anecdotal testimonials to "prove" that your process works or cures. I was especially interested in the history of Chiropractic doctors...who always seem to find a way to tell you that one leg is longer than the other.....

This show is great and it should be a mandatory viewing class for all schools age and adult students!

[Rokenn]

Originally posted by MagiK: Man I can't tell you how much I enjoy their new Showtime series "Bullshit!". Last nights episode had them completely debunking, Reflexology, Chiropractic, Magnetic and other so called "medical", scams. They really showed exactly why you cannot rely on anecdotal testimonials to "prove" that your process works or cures. I was especially interested in the history of Chiropractic doctors...who always seem to find a way to tell you that one leg is longer than the other..... This show is great and it should be a mandatory viewing class for all schools age and adult students!

mmm I'd be interested in seeing what they have to say about chiropracters. As I have had great success with them on my lower back. I can feel the difference after just one adjustment.

[WillowIX]

I´m sure their show was very fine indeed but calling all chiropractical medicine a scam is far too cynical for me.

Originally posted by Rokenn: mmm I'd be interested in seeing what they have to say about chiropracters. As I have had great success with them on my lower back. I can feel the difference after just one adjustment.

Bet you would have just as much "relief" after a massage too. They managed to show that they could cause many "Miraculous" pain and suffering reliefs with just one treatment of the following...
1. De-magnetized magnets
2. raingutters made in the shape of magnets
3. snail slime
4. simply reclining the patient on a cheap chair with wires going to it from an empty box
5. giving the patient a coat with weights placed in various adjustable locations

and much more. Their experts showed that they could get as good as or better results than any of the reflexologists, chiropractors, magnetic field operators, faith healers, aromatherapists and a whole host of other pseudo-scientific quacks. It is all a mind game, the "scammers" make the people feel like some thing has happened or was done to them and in the end it was demonstrable that they were just the beneficiaries of the power of positive thinking. They believed they would feel better so they did.

[Attalus]

Willow, we had one in the town where I used to practice that had a machine in his lab that did tests like strontium levels, and did adjustments based on the "deficiencies" that the machine revealed. And here I thought you had to use gas chromatography to determine strontium levels.

Originally posted by WillowIX: I´m sure their show was very fine indeed but calling all chiropractical medicine a scam is far too cynical for me.

Perhaps my wording is bad, what they did is reveal the complete nonsense and quackery behind the pseudo-science. I am sure there are quite a number of chiropractors who are sincere and do want the best for their patience but to date, there is really only anecdotal evidence to its benefits and the benefits cannot be reproduced reliably in controlled settings...thus in my book making it just a step up from snake oil.

I am also sure that some people do have joint disorders but chiropractics deal with spinal "adjustments" and Ihave to tell you, reading and listening to the roots and origins of this so called science I am appalled that the AMA doesnt crack down on those twits....err not that all chiropractors are twits, Im sure many of them are very nice.

[ 02-07-2003, 02:15 PM: Message edited by: MagiK ]

And Hey! Any show titled "BullShit" needs to be seen

[Timber Loftis]

Chiropractic isn't junk. The spine settles in odd ways, especially given our modern-day sedintary lifestyle, and re-aligning it is one of the healthiest things you can do.

The chiropractor also found a significant problem in my lower back caused by an accident I had as a kid. The fused vertebrae just below the lumbar and above the coccygeal (I forget the name) is so outta-whack that I have to do exercises to prevent possible crippleness later in life.

I haven't seen the chiropractor in about 5 years, or the doctor in about 10. But, my back has been being affected by sitting 10 hrs/day and I'm seriously seeking a chiropractor in the next few months.

As for the other crap, I'm sure it's funny. But, proving someone reacts to a placebo does not disprove the effectiveness of a treatment. You can do the same trick with fake Tylenol. And, there is no doubt that Penn & Teller are good magicians, but also very large assholes.

[ 02-07-2003, 02:18 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

Originally posted by Timber Loftis: Chiropractic isn't junk. The spine settles in odd ways, especially given our modern-day sedintary lifestyle, and re-aligning it is one of the healthiest things you can do. The chiropractor also found a significant problem in my lower back caused by an accident I had as a kid. The fused vertebrae just below the lumbar and above the coccygeal (I forget the name) is so outta-whack that I have to do exercises to prevent possible crippleness later in life. I haven't seen the chiropractor in about 5 years, or the doctor in about 10. But, my back has been being affected by sitting 10 hrs/day and I'm seriously seeking a chiropractor in the next few months. As for the other crap, I'm sure it's funny. But, proving someone reacts to a placebo does not disprove the effectiveness of a treatment. You can do the same trick with fake Tylenol. And, there is no doubt that Penn & Teller are good magicians, but also very large assholes.

TL Im sure you are quite glad you went to the chiropractor, and my posts here won't change your mind, what I do not convey well and what you have to see the show for is that they did not just use placebo's they used scientific investigative techniques to discount the science and pseudo science. If it works for ya, go for it...all I know is that I prefer to not count on my mind tricking me into believing someone twisting my neck can cure exema, hemmorhoids, arthritis and a whole host of other things that many legitimate chriopractors claim it can.

Honestly I can't even convey what all they exposed nor how they did it, I would have to reproduce the script from the show. I hope some day you can see it.

I would like to note, that people who have been cured by faith healers, psychic surgery, crystals, coloidal silver, and about a billion other new age pseudo-science practices are just as convinced as TL is about Chiropractors. Anecdotal evidence and testimonials are useless as scientific proof...at best they can merely point the way for a legitimate investigation.