Civil liberty

[Donut]

First they came for the Jews, and I didn't speak out - because I was not a Jew. Then they came for the Communists, and I did not speak out -because I was not a Communist. Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out -because I was not a trade unionist. Then they came for me and there was no one left to speak for me! -Pastor Niemoller (imprisoned in a concentration camp during WWII)


‘We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.’

- United States Declaration of Independence, July 4, 1776


From today’s New York Times
Rather than send investigators out knocking on doors, law enforcement officials in Michigan are sending letters today to hundreds of young Middle Eastern men who have come to the United States on temporary visas in the last two years, inviting them to make appointments for interviews regarding the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

The decision by the antiterrorism task force in the Detroit area, which is responsible for contacting about 700 of the 5,000 visitors sought for questioning nationwide, comes after two weeks of complaints from lawyers, community groups and local police chiefs that the vast canvass order by the Department of Justice unfairly singles out people based on religion or nationality and would be too time-consuming.

They refused to say what the authorities would do about those who failed to call.

Separately, Attorney General John Ashcroft yesterday defended the widespread detention of immigrants who had been swept up in the aftermath of the attacks, saying the arrests had "made America grow stronger, not weaker," and had been instrumental in "winning the war on terrorism."

In an eight-page memorandum outlining guidelines for the interviews, the Justice Department instructed local officials to check visitors' passports and visas. They are also to be asked about their visits to local landmarks and foreign countries; about their sources of income, scientific expertise and access to weapons, including anthrax; and for a list of phone numbers of friends and relatives.

"The individual should be asked if he is aware of anybody, including himself, who has received any training which could be applicable to terrorist activities," said the memorandum, whose contents were disclosed on Saturday in The Detroit Free Press. "You should ask whether the individual is aware of any persons who have sympathy for the Sept. 11 hijackers or other terrorists."

"You're asking people what are your political beliefs and what are the beliefs of your friends," said Hussein Ibish, a spokesman for the American Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee. "That is a set of questions that has a dark history in our country."

The Detroit letter emphasizes, with a boldface sentence, "We have no reason to believe that you are, in any way, associated with terrorist activities." The interviews are voluntary, it said, adding that "it is crucial that the investigation be broad based and thorough, and the interview is important to achieve that goal."

‘Are you now or have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?’
Senator Joseph McCarthy.


I feel a certain unease about the latest development in Michigan. I’m not sure if visitors to the US are given the same civil liberties that citizens take for granted. I’m sure that the gist of the argument for these letters will be along the lines of ‘if you are not guilty why would you worry about these interviews’, but the thing about phone numbers of your friends and family reminded me of the way the McCarthy witch-hunts evolved, with people putting the names of their friends forward in order to save their own skin.

So what do you Americans think? Is this the thin edge of the wedge, is your Government overstepping the mark here?

[Ronn_Bman]

Our hospitality has been abused, and we have become less hospitable.

Should we not ask any questions? Where do you draw the line? Do you wait until someone acts before asking questions or taking action? Do people have to die to justify inquiries?

The terrorists that abused the system pointed out flaws, should they not be addressed? Is it wrong to want to know if someone who is a visiter in the US is sympathetic to Osama Bin Laden?

What about American's rights to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"?

A comparison to the McCarthyism of the 50's is a bit premature, unless of course, the comparison is about the vilification of America by the world.

[Ryanamur]

Personnally, I have nothing against the police knocking on doors to find more possible criminals (terrorists or others). Civil liberties might the a right and a corner stone of our society but they are also our downfall. Do you think that those attacks would'a happened if we we allowed to really play "Big Brother". I don't think they would'a... they most likely would have been stopped before they struck!

Now, to the questions. They are dumb (mind you, so were the questions of McCarthy). Naturally, many of those will be seconded by a lawyer when it's gonna be time for the interview and I'd be really surprised if even one of the 5,000 interviewed admited to have been trained or be sympathetic to the terrorist cause! Well, we'll see how it all goes! [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Donut]

quote:

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Originally posted by Ronn_Bman:
[QB


The terrorists that abused the system pointed out flaws, should they not be addressed? Is it wrong to want to know if someone who is a visiter in the US is sympathetic to Osama Bin Laden?

A comparison to the McCarthyism of the 50's is a bit premature, unless of course, the comparison is about the vilification of America by the world.[/QB]

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My concern is that the questions asked are based on the colour of your skin. My reference to McCartyism was related to the specific point about giving up the names of your friends.

[Ronn_Bman]

quote:

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Originally posted by Donut:


My concern is that the questions asked are based on the colour of your skin. My reference to McCartyism was related to the specific point about giving up the names of your friends.

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Not on the color of their skin, but their nationality, which honestly isn't much better in the short view. It does make sense though since some middle easterners have espoused and acted on the idea of bringing down America by taking advantage of our system that others would be asked if they feel the same. All middle easterners aren't terrorists, so we shouldn't even ask?

Is it really inappropriate to question visitors here on visas? They are here as our guests, shouldn't they be willing to answer questions. If we allow them access to our nation, shouldn't they be willing to say they have no bad intentions towards us? Based on what happened through the abuse of this privilege by others, it will never be the same open policy it once was. Is America ruining the privilege by asking questions, or did those who so abused it to strike at our country?

Doesn't the safety provided by locating terrorists protect everyone, including those innocents here on visas?

[Silver Cheetah]

Is this going to be of any practical use? Or is it just a public relations excercise designed by government to show they are taking action and reassure citizens?

It comes over pretty much as a voluntary thing - somehow, I can't see anyone who *did* have anything to do with 9/11 coming forward, somehow. Unless they're a total moron, that is...

[Ronn_Bman]

quote:

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Originally posted by Silver Cheetah:
Is this going to be of any practical use? Or is it just a public relations excercise designed by government to show they are taking action and reassure citizens?

It comes over pretty much as a voluntary thing - somehow, I can't see anyone who *did* have anything to do with 9/11 coming forward, somehow. Unless they're a total moron, that is...

---

Are you following me

Hopefully, it will be effective. We have to make sure those who visit our country harbor no ill will to US.

I'm not sure it has much of a calming effect because it has the "civil rights" crowd up in arms.

Voluntary at first, but I'm sure people are being scrutanized. Not showing up won't be looked at favorably, and will certainly be worthy of further investigation.

[Magness]

Regarding civil rights, racial/ehtnic/nation profiling...

A while back I was watching (horrors!!!) CNN and a CNN reporter (not a guest talking head) made the rather interesting comment (I apologize to any Swedes in advance, I am merely repeating) (Also, I am paraphrasing... I don't remember the exact words.)

"When Swedes start flying planes into buildings, then I'll worry about Swedes. For now it's young Middle Eastern men who are doing this. Therefore, I see nothing wrong with profiling young middle eastern men."

And I agree with the gist of this statement. When you know for a fact that the potential terrorists fall into a certain definable group of persons, it is utterly ridiculous to try to pretend and act otherwise for sake of political correctness!!!


Furthermore, remember, we are not talking about some undefinable threat of something that might happen. We're talking about a real attack on the US by members of the above defined group of persons. And the threat that another attack(s) could occur. OBL has certainly urged further attacks. The "threat" is very real.

This is not like the "threat" of sabotage by Japanese-Americans in WW2. That was pure and simple unsubstantiated fear. Had there been sabotage attacks made by said citizens, that might have been one thing. But to the best of my knowledge, no such attacks ever occured. Pure and simple fear, not backed up by reality.

But today, we do have reality, the reality that an attack was made on the US that cost us 4000+ lives of our citizens and not a few citizens of other countries. And those attacks were for a fact carried out by enemies that were hiding among us. The fear of another attack this time is not based on baseless fear. It is based on the knowledge that it was done once and could be done again.

I'm not really certain where we (i.e. the US) should proceed from here. At times, I think that we should "invite" all middle eastern non-citizens to leave in 30 days. Other times, I think why bother...

Oh a side comment ...

On of the terrorists convicted in the 1st bombing of the WTC turned out to be a naturalized American muslim from the middle east. I think that he should now (and should have been at the time) charged with TREASON!!!!! Furthermore, any American citizen who is found to have knowingly assisted in the 09-11 attacks should also be charged with TREASON!!!!!

[Magness]

Regarding civil rights, racial/ehtnic/nation profiling...

A while back I was watching (horrors!!!) CNN and a CNN reporter (not a guest talking head) made the rather interesting comment (I apologize to any Swedes in advance, I am merely repeating) (Also, I am paraphrasing... I don't remember the exact words.)

"When Swedes start flying planes into buildings, then I'll worry about Swedes. For now it's young Middle Eastern men who are doing this. Therefore, I see nothing wrong with profiling young middle eastern men."

And I agree with the gist of this statement. When you know for a fact that the potential terrorists fall into a certain definable group of persons, it is utterly ridiculous to try to pretend and act otherwise for sake of political correctness!!!


Furthermore, remember, we are not talking about some undefinable threat of something that might happen. We're talking about a real attack on the US by members of the above defined group of persons. And the threat that another attack(s) could occur. OBL has certainly urged further attacks. The "threat" is very real.

This is not like the "threat" of sabotage by Japanese-Americans in WW2. That was pure and simple unsubstantiated fear. Had there been sabotage attacks made by said citizens, that might have been one thing. But to the best of my knowledge, no such attacks ever occured. Pure and simple fear, not backed up by reality.

But today, we do have reality, the reality that an attack was made on the US that cost us 4000+ lives of our citizens and not a few citizens of other countries. And those attacks were for a fact carried out by enemies that were hiding among us. The fear of another attack this time is not based on baseless fear. It is based on the knowledge that it was done once and could be done again.

I'm not really certain where we (i.e. the US) should proceed from here. At times, I think that we should "invite" all middle eastern non-citizens to leave in 30 days. Other times, I think why bother...

Oh a side comment ...

On of the terrorists convicted in the 1st bombing of the WTC turned out to be a naturalized American muslim from the middle east. I think that he should now (and should have been at the time) charged with TREASON!!!!! Furthermore, any American citizen who is found to have knowingly assisted in the 09-11 attacks should also be charged with TREASON!!!!!

[Magness]

What the???

Sorry about the double post. Don't know how that happened.