ACLU issues report on Patriot Act

Rokenn · 07-09-2003, 03:08 PM

And it ain't pretty:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
ACLU Demands Truth From Justice Department; New Report Details False Claims About Scope, Impact of PATRIOT Act

July 9, 2003
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Contact: Media@dcaclu.org

WASHINGTON -- The American Civil Liberties Union today said that it has found a consistent pattern of factually inaccurate assertions by the Department of Justice in statements to the media and Congress, statements that mischaracterize the scope, potential impact and likely harm of the now-notorious USA PATRIOT Act.

The ACLU’s findings were released this morning in a special report that contrasts the Justice Department’s assertions about the USA PATRIOT Act with the language of the Act itself, and in some cases contrasts the Justice Department’s public statements with language from internal Justice Department memoranda that the ACLU was able to obtain through a Freedom of Information Act request. The report – “Seeking Truth From Justice” – cites about a dozen specific instances in which Justice Department and other law enforcement officials misrepresented the scope or impact of the USA PATRIOT Act.

“If the Justice Department wishes to convince the American people and their elected representatives that it carries the Constitution with it at all times during its prosecution of the war on terror, it must be conscientious with the truth,” said Laura W. Murphy, Director of the ACLU Washington Legislative Office.

“That the department and its allies would repeatedly misrepresent the scope and nature of new surveillance powers is troubling, to say the least,” said Ann Beeson, ACLU Associate Legal Director.

Specific instances of what the ACLU termed the Attorney General’s legal version of "voodoo economics" include:

The Justice Department’s repeated assertion that the USA PATRIOT Act’s surveillance provisions cannot be used against U.S. citizens. In fact, the surveillance provisions are applicable to citizens and non-citizens alike. Some of the surveillance provisions can be used even against citizens who are not suspected of espionage, terrorism, or crime of any kind.

The Justice Department’s repeated assertion that Section 215 of the Patriot Act, which permits the government to demand that any organization – including a library, bookstore, or hospital – turn its records over to the FBI, cannot be invoked unless the government can show “probable cause.” In fact, the law contains no such restriction. Section 215 requires only that the government declare that the records are “sought for” an ongoing investigation. The “sought for” standard is an extremely lenient one, and it bears no resemblance to “probable cause.” That the standard is so low is especially troubling in light of the Attorney General’s recent acknowledgement (at a June 2003 Congressional hearing) that the FBI could use Section 215 to obtain not only library and bookstore records but also computer files, educational records, and even genetic information.

The “Seeking Truth From Justice” report can be found at:
http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/Safe...ID=13099&c=206

Night Stalker · 07-09-2003, 04:13 PM

Rokken, I appologise up front for partly hijacking this.

The Patriot Act is exactly the kind of thing the Bill of Rights (as is the rest of the Constitution) is designed to protect against. All ten of them.

"Those who give up freedom in exchange for security will have neither freedom nor security" - Ben Franklin

One Ammendment in particular protects the populace from government - the 2nd. The 2nd gives the People the right to defend itself, and take power back - violently if need be - from government. The Partiot Act is the reason an armed populace is required. No, the Founders could not envision tanks or assult riffles or MTon weapons, but People need to maintain some level of parity.

Should the Government continue down this path and not back away from it's power grab, then it obviates it's contract with the People. Should it be unwilling to abdicate power willingly and peacefully, then Revolution is the final answer.

Government rules with the consent of the governed. Not the other way around.

Now, I don't want to hijack this into a Circular Discussion^TM on Gun Control. I am merely highlighting the case in point for the right to arm bears.

Chewbacca · 07-09-2003, 05:20 PM

Add this to the WMD debacle and wow! Before we had only the president misleading the people about his sex life. Seems like small change in retrospect, as much as I value honesty.

Now it seems we have the entire executive branch and those appointed by the President misleading us. Misleading us about the spirit and letter of our laws, misleading us as to why we sent our soldiers into harms way.

No more. It is time for republicans to drop vainly defending this administration and to start asking some really tough questions. Only the truth will set us free.

Bardan the Slayer · 07-09-2003, 06:01 PM

Can I ask a question of the Americans here?

I know that the Patriot act is causing alot of fuss amongst what we could stereotypically define as the 'educated' sectors of society. My question is - does the average, typical Joe realise what all the controversy is all about? Does he know what the patriot act is, or why there is a fuss about it?

I'm just interested in knowing how much of the concern about the Patriot act is occuring from a 'man in the street' level?

Ta [img]smile.gif[/img]

Timber Loftis · 07-09-2003, 06:22 PM

Bardan, the man on the street is the exact wave Bush is riding. It's the guy who thinks, "Good, take away the rights of those commie pinko French and Muslim bastards to get a lawyer. We shouldn't let 'em in our country anyway."

His problem is Bush's problem. He simplifies a problem, often using stereotypes, and then rushes to a solution. Not to say Bush is all bad, and I do like plain speak. But, we are finding out that with the WMD issue, he was DEAD CERTAIN Iraq had them, and would hear no evidence to the contrary from his advisors -- because such evidence would stymie the solution he saw, to wit immediate invasion of Iraq. He may be a great guy, but he made his mind up on that issue and could not be swayed -- or so we are hearing. I appreciate a man of action, but also one of temperance.

I go round and round about these issues with my secretary all the time. She thinks gays should have no rights, thinks everyone French is an enemy because of the war disagreements, thinks the UN is worthless, and wants action - NOW - on all things. She thinks we absolutely had to go to war with Iraq, and she thinks any failure to find WMD is simply proof that Saddam and other evil Muslims spirited them out of the country before we could nab them. She hates Clinton, blames any problem in the current administration on his shortcomings -- including 9/11 -- and thinks any person in the White House is better than that scandaler. She's a very bright lady, and at 65 years of age her knowledge of history often leaves me confounded and I go searching history books so I may refute facts she cited which poked holes in my position.

In short, she IS the man on the street.

Back ON TOPIC: While I generally discredit ANYTHING the ACLU says flat out, this position seems rather reasonable. I haven't read the longer article because I don't want it to be just more of the typical ACLU crap I've come to expect.

[ 07-09-2003, 06:25 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]

Chewbacca · 07-09-2003, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bardan the Slayer:
Can I ask a question of the Americans here?

I know that the Patriot act is causing alot of fuss amongst what we could stereotypically define as the 'educated' sectors of society. My question is - does the average, typical Joe realise what all the controversy is all about? Does he know what the patriot act is, or why there is a fuss about it?

I'm just interested in knowing how much of the concern about the Patriot act is occuring from a 'man in the street' level?

Ta [img]smile.gif[/img]

Well Bardan, since I'm a high school drop out who has worked up from total poverty just a ten short years ago to my state of unemployment today ( damn music industry, thank God I saved) I'm pretty much the man on the street as far as education and income goes. I may be the exception to the rule though.

America has suffered from political apathy in recent times, couple that with the policies being written and supported out of fear of another 9-11 and you have a bunch of people who are out of touch with their goverment but have to depend on that same goverment for a sense of security.

The media is no help either, I have yet to see T.V. media do a report on the patriot act like some I have read, but they are starting to get their pre-9-11 gonads back about scrutinizing the goverment so we'll see.

That's my take on your question, hope it helps.

Bardan the Slayer · 07-09-2003, 06:33 PM

Hmm ... i hope i didn't offend anyone with my "educated sector" comments. I wasn't trying to imply that anyone without an education is a bum, or anything liek that. What I meant was that I have heard alot of dissent about the Patriot Act from people such as lawyers, doctors, academics.

Maybe my wording was clumsy. I guess I should have said I have heard the opinions of alot of people from the professional sector, but not many form the non-professional sector.

I know I have some problems with my wording occasionally. I hope I didn't offend [img]smile.gif[/img]

Sorry [img]smile.gif[/img]

Timber Loftis · 07-09-2003, 06:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Bardan the Slayer:
I know I have some problems with my wording occasionally. I hope I didn't offend [img]smile.gif[/img]

Sorry [img]smile.gif[/img]

I'm always offended when people point out that I'm an opinionated educated elitist. Especially since it's so damned right. So, shame on you. [img]graemlins/whackya.gif[/img]

I think our resident wookie is fine proof that education and academia are not one and the same.

Chewbacca · 07-09-2003, 06:47 PM

I wasnt offended Bardan, just because the state wouldn't give me a piece of paper because of my attendence record, doesnt mean I can't educate myself. I still scored in the top 1% of most of all my final exams up til the last year. I dropped out in 12th grade when I realized they were going to make me repeat, not based on acedemic performance but based on attendence. Sorry if I had real-life issues that kept me away from school, but that didn't stop me from studying or showing up for the tests. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Anyway this is all totally off-topic.
I could go on and on how the school system is designed to create the perfect work-force, rather than an enlightented educated society, but that is way off topic so I will stop now. [img]smile.gif[/img]

I did have to work my up through the ranks, earning everything I have. Heck even though I was terminated with-out cause from my recent job, I refuse to take goverment un-employment as a matter of principle. I know my family will help if push comes to shove and I know there are people worst off than me that may have kids to feed. I dunno how I qualify as "man on the street" in retrospect, but you asked a very good question. I'm curious to see more answers.

Chewbacca · 07-09-2003, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Timber Loftis:

quote:
Originally posted by Bardan the Slayer:
I know I have some problems with my wording occasionally. I hope I didn't offend [img]smile.gif[/img]

Sorry [img]smile.gif[/img]

I'm always offended when people point out that I'm an opinionated educated elitist. Especially since it's so damned right. So, shame on you. [img]graemlins/whackya.gif[/img]

I think our resident wookie is fine proof that education and academia are not one and the same. [/QUOTE]Aw gee, thanks. If I could only convince my fiance's grandmother the same thing!

07-09-2003, 03:08 PM	#1
Rokenn Galvatron Join Date: January 22, 2002 Location: california wine country Age: 61 Posts: 2,193	And it ain't pretty: ------------------------------------------------------------------------- ACLU Demands Truth From Justice Department; New Report Details False Claims About Scope, Impact of PATRIOT Act July 9, 2003 FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE Contact: Media@dcaclu.org WASHINGTON -- The American Civil Liberties Union today said that it has found a consistent pattern of factually inaccurate assertions by the Department of Justice in statements to the media and Congress, statements that mischaracterize the scope, potential impact and likely harm of the now-notorious USA PATRIOT Act. The ACLU’s findings were released this morning in a special report that contrasts the Justice Department’s assertions about the USA PATRIOT Act with the language of the Act itself, and in some cases contrasts the Justice Department’s public statements with language from internal Justice Department memoranda that the ACLU was able to obtain through a Freedom of Information Act request. The report – “Seeking Truth From Justice” – cites about a dozen specific instances in which Justice Department and other law enforcement officials misrepresented the scope or impact of the USA PATRIOT Act. “If the Justice Department wishes to convince the American people and their elected representatives that it carries the Constitution with it at all times during its prosecution of the war on terror, it must be conscientious with the truth,” said Laura W. Murphy, Director of the ACLU Washington Legislative Office. “That the department and its allies would repeatedly misrepresent the scope and nature of new surveillance powers is troubling, to say the least,” said Ann Beeson, ACLU Associate Legal Director. Specific instances of what the ACLU termed the Attorney General’s legal version of "voodoo economics" include: The Justice Department’s repeated assertion that the USA PATRIOT Act’s surveillance provisions cannot be used against U.S. citizens. In fact, the surveillance provisions are applicable to citizens and non-citizens alike. Some of the surveillance provisions can be used even against citizens who are not suspected of espionage, terrorism, or crime of any kind. The Justice Department’s repeated assertion that Section 215 of the Patriot Act, which permits the government to demand that any organization – including a library, bookstore, or hospital – turn its records over to the FBI, cannot be invoked unless the government can show “probable cause.” In fact, the law contains no such restriction. Section 215 requires only that the government declare that the records are “sought for” an ongoing investigation. The “sought for” standard is an extremely lenient one, and it bears no resemblance to “probable cause.” That the standard is so low is especially troubling in light of the Attorney General’s recent acknowledgement (at a June 2003 Congressional hearing) that the FBI could use Section 215 to obtain not only library and bookstore records but also computer files, educational records, and even genetic information. The “Seeking Truth From Justice” report can be found at: http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/Safe...ID=13099&c=206 __________________ “This is an impressive crowd, the haves and the have mores. <br />Some people call you the elite. <br />I call you my base.”<br />~ George W. Bush (2000)

07-09-2003, 04:13 PM	#2
Night Stalker Lord Ao Join Date: June 24, 2002 Location: Nevernever Land Age: 50 Posts: 2,002	Rokken, I appologise up front for partly hijacking this. The Patriot Act is exactly the kind of thing the Bill of Rights (as is the rest of the Constitution) is designed to protect against. All ten of them. "Those who give up freedom in exchange for security will have neither freedom nor security" - Ben Franklin One Ammendment in particular protects the populace from government - the 2nd. The 2nd gives the People the right to defend itself, and take power back - violently if need be - from government. The Partiot Act is the reason an armed populace is required. No, the Founders could not envision tanks or assult riffles or MTon weapons, but People need to maintain some level of parity. Should the Government continue down this path and not back away from it's power grab, then it obviates it's contract with the People. Should it be unwilling to abdicate power willingly and peacefully, then Revolution is the final answer. Government rules with the consent of the governed. Not the other way around. Now, I don't want to hijack this into a Circular Discussion^TM on Gun Control. I am merely highlighting the case in point for the right to arm bears. __________________ [url]\"http://www.duryea.org/pinky/gurkin.wav\" target=\"_blank\">AYPWIP?</a> .... <img border=\"0\" alt=\"[1ponder]\" title=\"\" src=\"graemlins/1ponder.gif\" /> <br />\"I think so Brain, but isn\'t a cucumber that small called a gherkin?\"<br /><br />Shut UP! Pinky!

07-09-2003, 05:20 PM	#3
Chewbacca Zartan Join Date: July 18, 2001 Location: America, On The Beautiful Earth Age: 51 Posts: 5,373	Add this to the WMD debacle and wow! Before we had only the president misleading the people about his sex life. Seems like small change in retrospect, as much as I value honesty. Now it seems we have the entire executive branch and those appointed by the President misleading us. Misleading us about the spirit and letter of our laws, misleading us as to why we sent our soldiers into harms way. No more. It is time for republicans to drop vainly defending this administration and to start asking some really tough questions. Only the truth will set us free. __________________ Support Local Music and Record Stores! Got Liberty?

07-09-2003, 06:01 PM	#4
Bardan the Slayer Drizzt Do'Urden Join Date: August 16, 2002 Location: Newcastle, England Age: 46 Posts: 699	Can I ask a question of the Americans here? I know that the Patriot act is causing alot of fuss amongst what we could stereotypically define as the 'educated' sectors of society. My question is - does the average, typical Joe realise what all the controversy is all about? Does he know what the patriot act is, or why there is a fuss about it? I'm just interested in knowing how much of the concern about the Patriot act is occuring from a 'man in the street' level? Ta [img]smile.gif[/img] __________________ <br />[url]\"http://www.the-silver-river.com\" target=\"_blank\">Admin and Co-Owner of The Silver River!</a><br />[url]\"http://www.the-silver-river.com/Photo%20Album/Reeka.html\" target=\"_blank\">SMNOOOOOOCH!</a> You know who it\'s meant for <img border=\"0\" title=\"\" alt=\"[Wink]\" src=\"wink.gif\" />

07-09-2003, 06:22 PM	#5
Timber Loftis 40th Level Warrior Join Date: July 11, 2002 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 11,916	Bardan, the man on the street is the exact wave Bush is riding. It's the guy who thinks, "Good, take away the rights of those commie pinko French and Muslim bastards to get a lawyer. We shouldn't let 'em in our country anyway." His problem is Bush's problem. He simplifies a problem, often using stereotypes, and then rushes to a solution. Not to say Bush is all bad, and I do like plain speak. But, we are finding out that with the WMD issue, he was DEAD CERTAIN Iraq had them, and would hear no evidence to the contrary from his advisors -- because such evidence would stymie the solution he saw, to wit immediate invasion of Iraq. He may be a great guy, but he made his mind up on that issue and could not be swayed -- or so we are hearing. I appreciate a man of action, but also one of temperance. I go round and round about these issues with my secretary all the time. She thinks gays should have no rights, thinks everyone French is an enemy because of the war disagreements, thinks the UN is worthless, and wants action - NOW - on all things. She thinks we absolutely had to go to war with Iraq, and she thinks any failure to find WMD is simply proof that Saddam and other evil Muslims spirited them out of the country before we could nab them. She hates Clinton, blames any problem in the current administration on his shortcomings -- including 9/11 -- and thinks any person in the White House is better than that scandaler. She's a very bright lady, and at 65 years of age her knowledge of history often leaves me confounded and I go searching history books so I may refute facts she cited which poked holes in my position. In short, she IS the man on the street. Back ON TOPIC: While I generally discredit ANYTHING the ACLU says flat out, this position seems rather reasonable. I haven't read the longer article because I don't want it to be just more of the typical ACLU crap I've come to expect. [ 07-09-2003, 06:25 PM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ] __________________

07-09-2003, 06:33 PM	#7
Bardan the Slayer Drizzt Do'Urden Join Date: August 16, 2002 Location: Newcastle, England Age: 46 Posts: 699	Hmm ... i hope i didn't offend anyone with my "educated sector" comments. I wasn't trying to imply that anyone without an education is a bum, or anything liek that. What I meant was that I have heard alot of dissent about the Patriot Act from people such as lawyers, doctors, academics. Maybe my wording was clumsy. I guess I should have said I have heard the opinions of alot of people from the professional sector, but not many form the non-professional sector. I know I have some problems with my wording occasionally. I hope I didn't offend [img]smile.gif[/img] Sorry [img]smile.gif[/img] __________________ <br />[url]\"http://www.the-silver-river.com\" target=\"_blank\">Admin and Co-Owner of The Silver River!</a><br />[url]\"http://www.the-silver-river.com/Photo%20Album/Reeka.html\" target=\"_blank\">SMNOOOOOOCH!</a> You know who it\'s meant for <img border=\"0\" title=\"\" alt=\"[Wink]\" src=\"wink.gif\" />

07-09-2003, 06:47 PM	#9
Chewbacca Zartan Join Date: July 18, 2001 Location: America, On The Beautiful Earth Age: 51 Posts: 5,373	I wasnt offended Bardan, just because the state wouldn't give me a piece of paper because of my attendence record, doesnt mean I can't educate myself. I still scored in the top 1% of most of all my final exams up til the last year. I dropped out in 12th grade when I realized they were going to make me repeat, not based on acedemic performance but based on attendence. Sorry if I had real-life issues that kept me away from school, but that didn't stop me from studying or showing up for the tests. [img]tongue.gif[/img] Anyway this is all totally off-topic. I could go on and on how the school system is designed to create the perfect work-force, rather than an enlightented educated society, but that is way off topic so I will stop now. [img]smile.gif[/img] I did have to work my up through the ranks, earning everything I have. Heck even though I was terminated with-out cause from my recent job, I refuse to take goverment un-employment as a matter of principle. I know my family will help if push comes to shove and I know there are people worst off than me that may have kids to feed. I dunno how I qualify as "man on the street" in retrospect, but you asked a very good question. I'm curious to see more answers. __________________ Support Local Music and Record Stores! Got Liberty?

Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Patriot Act and Administration Ideology	Timber Loftis	General Discussion	35	01-13-2004 10:27 AM
DOJ's own internal Report Alleges Patriot Act Civil Rights Violations	Timber Loftis	General Discussion	1	07-21-2003 11:43 AM
the Corporate Patriot Enforcement Act	Rokenn	General Conversation Archives (11/2000 - 01/2005)	20	04-17-2003 10:30 PM
ACLU takes on the Patriot act (finally!)	Rokenn	General Conversation Archives (11/2000 - 01/2005)	29	10-19-2002 12:32 AM
Are you a patriot?	Neb	General Conversation Archives (11/2000 - 01/2005)	5	02-14-2002 08:28 PM