Fascinatin' Pacin'

Horpner Sneed · 01-30-2004, 10:27 AM

I think it is notable that Wizardry 8 paces its challenge level differently than most other CRPGs. It is quite easy at first. It reaches a plateau of difficulty at level 6, which lasts for the bulk of the game, up until around level 14, when you have earned the right to spank. This lasts basically as long as you have patience for it; you can usually win the game whenever you want after this point.

In many other CRPGs, the very beginning is the most difficult point. I've been replaying M&M 2, for example, and I can't get to 2nd level. Bard's Tale and the earlier Wizardry games were very similar. In other CRPGs, 3rd level is generally the point where, if you follow the course, you no longer face overly difficult challenges.

Many players are initially shocked by Wiz8's difficulty curve because it is different. But it is actually comparable to the difficulty of classic CRPGs, only the timing has been improved.

The greatest benefit of Wizardy 8's curve, is that starting new parties is *fun*. In most classic games, the beginning is such a painful experience that most players won't willinginly replay with new characters.

Horp

Ben Lauritson · 01-30-2004, 11:08 AM

I agree with the different curve in Wiz8. With a lot of other CRPGs, you have to know the game practically inside out and know all the tricks of the trade to have an easy time at the start. But I prefer how it does it in Wiz8, because just like you said, it's much more fun to start new parties.

sponkly · 01-31-2004, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Horpner Sneed:
... up until around level 14, when you have earned the right to spank.

What am I doing wrong I wonder ... my party is lev 13/14 and they were just innocently wandering through the swamp looking for Brekek (but only to discuss philosophy with him) when they got bum-rushed by a few Rynjin and .. let's just say the spanking flowed in a different direction than I had in mind. My bishop didn't get Soul Shield off before she was Psi-blasted into insanity, and it all went downhill from there. I haven't repeated the combat yet (it was past my bedtime), but I don't expect it to get much easier. Here is my party overview:

RFS-81 / Lev 11 (just got him)
Vi Domina / Lev 13
male Human Lord / Lev 13
male Felpurr Samurai / Lev 13
male Mook Ranger / Lev 13
female Hobbit Bard / Lev 14
female Hobbit Gadg / Lev 14
female Elf Bishop / Lev 12

Perhaps I should mention that I don't do much "cheesy-training" ... I mean, boosting Div. by healing-up before camping is kosher, but I just can't bring myself to cast Knock-Knock a bazillion times at the big vault, sleeping in between. This means that my hybrid's don't have much spell power yet, so I am effectively limited to one-spell caster in combat. Perhaps that is my "big problem". I plan to go back to Arnika-Road and focus on training them up (in combat) to be better spellcasters, but I haven't gotten around to it yet.

Wow, this kinda got to be all about me didn't it? But anyway, I definitely am still on the steep part of the learning curve. Not that I am complaining .. most of the time I don't bother finishing RPG's ... once I get to the "omnipotent" stage it gets too boring. For example in BG II I played a Monk character who could thrash a Red-Dragon in single combat ... awesome to contemplate (pun very much intended) perhaps, but not very challenging or fun to play.

*** hits the loquacious-mode-off button ***

Wiz8 rocks!

Holywhippet · 01-31-2004, 04:03 PM

Wizardry 8 does seem to drop into a hole in terms of difficulty near the end. I depends on how much you level and build up I suppose but Ascension peak is a bit too easy. Also the fight again the Dark Savant is hard to lose - sometimes he'll take out a character but his hp are too low for him to be a serious threat.

I still remember the original Bard's Tale and trying to start it. It was a case of create a party, go into battle then watch your front line all die. Fall back and drop the dead characters then replace them with new ones. Repeat until your back row magic users gain some levels and can help the front row survive. There was of course the option of using the horn of fire (or whatever it was called) that one of the pregenerated characters had. It would damage/kill all enemies you faced. Except of course it had limited charges so it was better to save it until you faced stronger enemies. There was another Interplay game similar to Bards Tale that did it far better - I think it was called Dragon Wars.

babar · 01-31-2004, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by sponkly:

quote:
Originally posted by Horpner Sneed:
... up until around level 14, when you have earned the right to spank.

What am I doing wrong I wonder ... my party is lev 13/14 and they were just innocently wandering through the swamp looking for Brekek (but only to discuss philosophy with him) when they got bum-rushed by a few Rynjin and ..

[/QUOTE]I usually run more or less the same party, except I usually have an elf ranger (no giant sword, but then I don't like getting kidnapped by Screg) and a human valk instead of the gadg. The Rynjins are no pushovers and getting your butt whipped is just nature's way of telling you to stay away until you are stronger. It might be as simple as having Magic Screen up at a higher level or buying a certain ring from crock. But seeing as the Bishop is only 12, it doesn't seem like she's gotten her 'spank license' yet.

Ziggurat · 02-01-2004, 09:25 AM

With some bishops, lev 11 gives you all protections (my current lev 11 mook has soul, elemental, MS, armorplate, and missile but won't have powercast 'til lev 14). The Soul Shield on top of Magic Screen is most important against the Rinjin spells for insanity, but no guarantee. Then they run up, stay conveniently at legs-length, and kick the *&#% out of the party.

Rawhide · 02-01-2004, 04:50 PM

I think Wiz 8 is easy at the end because the enemies rely so much on magic, which by that time you're almost immune to even before you get element/soul shield up. Similarly, magical damage spells are only really good for taking out weak monsters when you're strong. 3 fighter type characters eg. android and 2 others can destroy any enemies with more ease.
The only threat at the end was the small chance of an enemy death spell happening to kill one of my characters, or of Pee Wee knocking a couple out, and then stomping them, but my party wasn't going to lose. I was trying to complete the game without any deaths (I had 2, both against Nessie), which is why that worried me.
Any Wiz 9 should have a different magic system, which allows spells of any power to be cast, if supplied with enough mana (or something similar), so that magic remains potent. It would also give more options of playing style, but might be a bit too powerful a mechanism if people could regenerate mana just by camping.
I also found the Rynjin tricky, and waited a long time before I could get to Bayjin, and even then I had real problems with the sprites there.

[ 02-01-2004, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: Rawhide ]

Horpner Sneed · 02-02-2004, 11:01 AM

If anything, I underestimated the level when you get your spanking license.

Depending on how you are going through the game, you may or may not be quite there at level 14.

As others have said, the determining factors are the power of your buff spells and then the quality of your equipment.

There's a nice illustration of how good the buff spells are on Ascension Peak when you fight the Crystal Mares (?). They take a long time to beat down once they get their buffs on.

If you want to get your license before taking on the northern part of the swamp and Bayjin, then go to Ferro first. He sells spanking licenses.

02-02-2004, 03:44 PM

Well, it all depends on the area you are at. Obviously a lvl 14 party can take on the Arnika Trynton Road anytime. However, take that same party and place em in the Mountain Wilderness and Ascension Peak, and they are cannon fodder. And I find the beginning stretch hard as hell (arnika road or whatever its called). Its mainly those damn higardi...

Scatter · 02-02-2004, 11:27 PM

Usually i'm finished with the Rapax area by 15/16. That's my spank zone. By then i've got almost everything i want to equip. That's when i go to Nebdar.

01-30-2004, 11:08 AM	#2
Ben Lauritson Dungeon Master Join Date: December 19, 2003 Location: UK Age: 38 Posts: 93	I agree with the different curve in Wiz8. With a lot of other CRPGs, you have to know the game practically inside out and know all the tricks of the trade to have an easy time at the start. But I prefer how it does it in Wiz8, because just like you said, it's much more fun to start new parties. __________________ The twilight will always be my domain,<br />For it is neutrality I shall retain.

02-01-2004, 09:25 AM	#6
Ziggurat Symbol of Cyric Join Date: November 4, 2001 Location: Baltimore, Md Age: 71 Posts: 1,106	With some bishops, lev 11 gives you all protections (my current lev 11 mook has soul, elemental, MS, armorplate, and missile but won't have powercast 'til lev 14). The Soul Shield on top of Magic Screen is most important against the Rinjin spells for insanity, but no guarantee. Then they run up, stay conveniently at legs-length, and kick the *&#% out of the party. __________________ How are you today, Citizen?

01-30-2004, 10:27 AM	#1
Horpner Sneed Elite Waterdeep Guard Join Date: December 10, 2003 Location: Vermont, USA Age: 55 Posts: 49	I think it is notable that Wizardry 8 paces its challenge level differently than most other CRPGs. It is quite easy at first. It reaches a plateau of difficulty at level 6, which lasts for the bulk of the game, up until around level 14, when you have earned the right to spank. This lasts basically as long as you have patience for it; you can usually win the game whenever you want after this point. In many other CRPGs, the very beginning is the most difficult point. I've been replaying M&M 2, for example, and I can't get to 2nd level. Bard's Tale and the earlier Wizardry games were very similar. In other CRPGs, 3rd level is generally the point where, if you follow the course, you no longer face overly difficult challenges. Many players are initially shocked by Wiz8's difficulty curve because it is different. But it is actually comparable to the difficulty of classic CRPGs, only the timing has been improved. The greatest benefit of Wizardy 8's curve, is that starting new parties is fun. In most classic games, the beginning is such a painful experience that most players won't willinginly replay with new characters. Horp

01-31-2004, 04:03 PM	#4
Holywhippet Dungeon Master Join Date: December 4, 2002 Location: Canberra, Australia Age: 52 Posts: 92	Wizardry 8 does seem to drop into a hole in terms of difficulty near the end. I depends on how much you level and build up I suppose but Ascension peak is a bit too easy. Also the fight again the Dark Savant is hard to lose - sometimes he'll take out a character but his hp are too low for him to be a serious threat. I still remember the original Bard's Tale and trying to start it. It was a case of create a party, go into battle then watch your front line all die. Fall back and drop the dead characters then replace them with new ones. Repeat until your back row magic users gain some levels and can help the front row survive. There was of course the option of using the horn of fire (or whatever it was called) that one of the pregenerated characters had. It would damage/kill all enemies you faced. Except of course it had limited charges so it was better to save it until you faced stronger enemies. There was another Interplay game similar to Bards Tale that did it far better - I think it was called Dragon Wars.

02-01-2004, 04:50 PM	#7
Rawhide Elite Waterdeep Guard Join Date: November 26, 2003 Location: Oxford Age: 40 Posts: 21	I think Wiz 8 is easy at the end because the enemies rely so much on magic, which by that time you're almost immune to even before you get element/soul shield up. Similarly, magical damage spells are only really good for taking out weak monsters when you're strong. 3 fighter type characters eg. android and 2 others can destroy any enemies with more ease. The only threat at the end was the small chance of an enemy death spell happening to kill one of my characters, or of Pee Wee knocking a couple out, and then stomping them, but my party wasn't going to lose. I was trying to complete the game without any deaths (I had 2, both against Nessie), which is why that worried me. Any Wiz 9 should have a different magic system, which allows spells of any power to be cast, if supplied with enough mana (or something similar), so that magic remains potent. It would also give more options of playing style, but might be a bit too powerful a mechanism if people could regenerate mana just by camping. I also found the Rynjin tricky, and waited a long time before I could get to Bayjin, and even then I had real problems with the sprites there. [ 02-01-2004, 04:52 PM: Message edited by: Rawhide ]

02-02-2004, 11:01 AM	#8
Horpner Sneed Elite Waterdeep Guard Join Date: December 10, 2003 Location: Vermont, USA Age: 55 Posts: 49	If anything, I underestimated the level when you get your spanking license. Depending on how you are going through the game, you may or may not be quite there at level 14. As others have said, the determining factors are the power of your buff spells and then the quality of your equipment. There's a nice illustration of how good the buff spells are on Ascension Peak when you fight the Crystal Mares (?). They take a long time to beat down once they get their buffs on. If you want to get your license before taking on the northern part of the swamp and Bayjin, then go to Ferro first. He sells spanking licenses.

02-02-2004, 03:44 PM	#9
SecretMaster Guest Posts: n/a	Well, it all depends on the area you are at. Obviously a lvl 14 party can take on the Arnika Trynton Road anytime. However, take that same party and place em in the Mountain Wilderness and Ascension Peak, and they are cannon fodder. And I find the beginning stretch hard as hell (arnika road or whatever its called). Its mainly those damn higardi...

02-02-2004, 11:27 PM	#10
Scatter Symbol of Cyric Join Date: August 17, 2003 Location: Portland Age: 66 Posts: 1,336	Usually i'm finished with the Rapax area by 15/16. That's my spank zone. By then i've got almost everything i want to equip. That's when i go to Nebdar.

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