OK...whats cheating?

[quietman1920]

OK...now I Love the mod and I like to play there. It can be a tad rough for a level 1 character with leather armor, 50 gold, and a short sword. (I intentionally tried that last night and died like 150 times before killing something & getting level 2) The other players were very nice & kept asking if I was OK. (translation: you keep dying on level 1; are you having a seizure at your keyboard or what?)

Now, I know I could go to "Zurks House of Pancakes & Cheater Supplies" & pick up a Great Axe of Planetary Slaying...but I'd just end up in the cheater's cell.
I'd I have no problem with that, because that to me is cheating.

I could use the game editor to give my character a +5 sword that is limited to that character, but its the same thing and I'd go the same place. And I agree: its cheating.

Now I could start a level one with $50,000 gold and just let the character shop when they get to the board. Yes, technically, that's cheating. But that's also a gray area. Yes, you're starting your Fighter with a +2 full plate and a Rashemi greatsword...and yes, you don't die as much. But is that really cheating? It doesn't pollute the board with non-standard items. It really doesn't hurt other players or ruin their games. Its not like the character's sword is flaming red or dripping green (the sign of a cheater sword). I don't want to ruin the game, lessen anyone's experience, or become a Pariah, so I'm asking this openly: is it OK with the community (and especially Zirok, who has slaved for hundreds if not thousands of hours over the mod to make it as amazing as it is now) if I do this? I'm only asking because when you lose almost 15 duels in a row to a lesser goblin, its embarrassing...

[Micah Foehammer]

Interesting question. [img]smile.gif[/img] For what it is worth, here is my view. Cheating is:

(a) Bringing in a character that has been hacked using a character editor to give your character inherent 100% immunities to damage type or stats that can not be obtained thru normal character leveling or legal items. Sub-race arguments do NOT hold water here, imho, since subraces are NOT supported in the game.

(b) Equipping an otherwise legal character with UBER items built in the toolset which exceed "reasonable" limits. What is reasonable? If you are building items designed to give you total immunity to ALL damage types, that is NOT reasonable. If the item allows you to do mega-death damage on ONE hit without a crit, that is unreasonable. I could make a good case, and probably with a lot of support from the folks who have played in EfU, that any item OVER level 20 could be considered cheating. Okay, maybe that can be stretched a bit - say to level 24, but a +5, keen, 2d6 massive crit, holy avenger weapon which does 5 points of damage of EACH elemental damage type and gives the wielder True Seeing, Darkvision, Immunity to Sneak Attacks, Immunity to Critical Hits, and Immunity to Death Magic that is a level 50 item is probably just a BIT over the top!

Others may disagree but I don't have a problem if somebody brings in a level 20 character made in a leveller mod equipped with Custom Items built in the toolset given two conditions: (1) the items do not exceed level 20, and (2) the character stats are not hacked. In the case you describe, go ahead and use a leveller mod to build a character higher than level one if you want, and give yourself enough gold to buy the equipment that would be appropriate for that character. That's not cheating - at least not imho. It's actually kind of fun to build different character combinations in a leveller and try them out in EfU. I've done it and so have a lot of people. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Now for the rant! [img]smile.gif[/img]

The biggest problem with cheaters is that they TOTALLY ruin the undermountain experience for the others! What is the challenge of playing in the mod if some pre-pubescent munchkin Drizzt wannabee comes waltzing in with his twin scimitars of Uber slaying and just strolls through the mod killing everything in sight without any risk of damage? What is left for the OTHER people to do? The answer is NOTHING! It's a freaking bore! I don't understand how somebody can have fun building a character and equipping it so that its totally impervious to any damage. There is no challenge and no fun - it's a total waste of time if you ask me.

The most recent thrill I got playing in Efu was taking a new monk that I had built (level 20), equipped with level 20 capped items, and soloed here against the Greater Bone Golem! Okay, I died twice and respawned, but I beat that boney ba$tard to death with my fists! WOOHOO!!! Wasn't quite the same the next time through when some munchkin pouned it for 150 hps a shot of damage while the rest of it stood around. It was boring.

Okay . end of rant .. lol

Oh and to answer your question, i can't speak for everyone but personally i would have no problems if you want to bring in a character with some extra gold and buy whatever you want at Durnan's shop. I would recommend something higher than a level one though, but I admire you for trying. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 10-28-2003, 01:33 PM: Message edited by: Micah Foehammer ]

[Larry_OHF]

I typically have PCs that are level 20 and have very nice equipment, but limited to level 20. If the Toolset lets me build it, I make it. That is not cheating, especially after you see what Ziroc hs in store on level 10! My super characters last maybe 1 minute.

[robertthebard]

I'm guilty. I create my chars in a leveller mod, and give them custom equipment, I do. But every piece of equipment i use is legal, by game standards. I die as much, if not more, than most of the chars I run into in game, and even stopped a kid from logging out to make us some unlimited harm items for a specific red dragon, as much as i didn't want to, lol. Fight him once, and you'll know what i mean. I do not make items that confer 100% immunity to anything, and the items that i have that do confer those immunities, you can buy at the better shops, in the OC.
Immunities is one thing, I have watched a char change swords 10 times, trying to find a sword that would deal instant death to specific creatures in game. To me it's funny, in a *why bother to play if your not going to play* kind of way. I take the risk of dieing every time i go into Undermountain, and that's what makes it fun. I watch people getting 150 points of dmg on a creature by walking into the same room and think, gee, why?
I don't think it's cheating to take a lvl 20 char in with items appropriate for a lvl 20. I don't let the items I craft go over lvl 20, when they do, it's back to the drawing board, to get it right, because that's what it is, right. by all means, use the tool set, make a stocker module, but don't try to create gods. If you run around in the dungeons enough, you will find items that will make you feel like one, but will still be legal. I'd like to define legal as competitive. The creatures you face have a chance, no matter how small, on lvl one, very few of the creatures have a real chance against a well made lvl 20 fighter, or monk, etc., but a chance, to make you hit the respawn button.
Hey, I ranted. [img]graemlins/rant.gif[/img]

[Memnoch]

I posted something about this some time ago, but I think Micah has it right on the money so I won't try and find it. [img]smile.gif[/img] This isn't a mod where you start from scratch with a level 1 character and slowly grow. You can, but it will be painful. It's more suitable to a mid-level (5-7 at LEAST) with a group, and even then it will be tough. I don't have any problem with people who come in with glowing swords or that sort of stuff, as long as they don't exceed level 20 in usability and pass the "reasonableness" test - which is what Micah and Larry and rob said. And roleplay. That's the key to enjoyment of the game for me. Just as long as they don't roleplay being Torm's avatar on Faerun.

So don't worry about coming in a little prepared. Just don't come in invincible. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Micah Foehammer]

Originally posted by robertthebard: snip - The creatures you face have a chance, no matter how small, on lvl one, very few of the creatures have a real chance against a well made lvl 20 fighter, or monk, etc., but a chance, to make you hit the respawn button. Hey, I ranted. [img]graemlins/rant.gif[/img]

Tell me about it! My monk (level 20)had been breezing through the first two levels on her way to fight the big bad bone golem on level 2 when some snotty drow cleric hit her with finger of death (or at least some instant death spell) and POOF! One dead Monk! Respawn, slap the taste out of the drow's mouth abd then move on, but talk about EMBARASSING!

[robertthebard]

Originally posted by Micah Foehammer: quote: Originally posted by robertthebard: snip - The creatures you face have a chance, no matter how small, on lvl one, very few of the creatures have a real chance against a well made lvl 20 fighter, or monk, etc., but a chance, to make you hit the respawn button. Hey, I ranted. [img]graemlins/rant.gif[/img]

Tell me about it! My monk (level 20)had been breezing through the first two levels on her way to fight the big bad bone golem on level 2 when some snotty drow cleric hit her with finger of death (or at least some instant death spell) and POOF! One dead Monk! Respawn, slap the taste out of the drow's mouth abd then move on, but talk about EMBARASSING! [/QUOTE]Yeah, i hate when that happens, your goin along looking all cool, and poof, what happened? I hate the little acid balls, i really do. no matter how good i'm doing, boom, take that.

[Mouse]

Just my [img]graemlins/twocents.gif[/img]

I've always taken the attitude that as long as you stick to equipment/stats that are achievable within the game itself, then it's "no hurt - no foul." What really gets my goat is the Diablo Syndrome where people use hacks to completely upset the gameplay balance by creating characters that could never be part of the legitimate game.

As a concrete example, I used a third party app. to allow me to test out different uniques/special items on my character when I used to play DII. However, all these items were ones that could be legitimately found/made within the unaltered game.

[ScottG]

I just started into making my own items, etc. and this seems like the right post to ask questions so..

what level items are acceptable for character level? Is there a 1:1 realtionship? (i.e. only an 18th level character or better can have 18th level equipment.) Or is something more along the lines of +4 or 5 levels above character level acceptable? (or something completely different or a variation on the theme?)

Furthermore..

People talk about abusive immunities, but freedom of movement alone gives (I think) 4 immunites right there. The OC Greater Amulet of Health gives (I think) 3 immunites. Just with a Freedom ring, the above Amulet, and Golden Circlet, you character stat sheet that starts appearing to have a saga length list of immunities (and considering the power of immunity to mind effects the list really should be MUCH longer). So how much is to much? Consider that you could easily (utilizing all of your equipment) have immunity to all sorceror/wizard spells by placing immunity to a school in each of your wearable items at a "level 18" limit and still have additional effects. Would most consider this acceptable? Sure a character with those immunities could still get "spelled" by priest or druid spells, but to me this seems way over the top while still being "legal" (if the character is level 18 or better). If it is unacceptable what is the acceptable compromise?

Finally there is the matter of spell casting via wearables that aren't being worn. For instace you could have ANY spell at least once per day tucked into a ring to use effectivly allowing the character to use any spell without ever having to be a magic class character. You could easily have most of you inventory "littered" with these rings allowing the required spell to be cast at any time. For example an 18th level fighter casts timestop, then walks to opponent and casts natures balance, then casts Harm on opponent, and finally casts Finger of Death (or something similar for the coup de gra). (Not enough time? eh, well then maybe they have 5 or 6 timestop rings with a once per day designation.) Again, whats reasonable given character level and class structure?

[Legolas]

If you think it's over the top, it probably is.

If item level restricions are on, there's a 1:1 relation as you said, a level 7 character can only use items for characters of level 7 or less. Since they're not on, a level 1 character could use level 68 items if that's what he wants.

For items within this range you can add whatever you like, provided you keep it realistic. Why should an item grant immunities to death magic and the spell school Evocation (these two practically make you immune to most damaging spells already), or what's your character doing with a cloak that grants him full immunities to piercing and fire damage? Why should your character be immune to critical hits and sneak attacks? Just because you can cram it all onto one item?

The main troublemakers are Immunities (and Resistances), Truesight and Haste. Because they're unrealistic even in a fantasy world, for the most part, and because they give you advantages over certain or all monsters that are decidedly unfair. When you get to the point where all the damage you take is either discarded or regenerated immediately, and you shrug off all spells like a bit of mild rain, you'll know something is wrong.

Just create the character first, and then make the items, if any, around the character. They'll not be as powerful or effective, but they fit the image and hey... wasn't that the point? [img]smile.gif[/img]