A Relook On The Maximum Possible Backstab Damage

[Dundee Slaytern]

The following contains item spoilers. Read on at your own peril.

Spoiler Space

Assume the following conditions,

• Player always rolls magical maximums
• The target is an unarmed Chaotic Evil Undead
• Daystar in the main hand, Equalizer in the off hand

FFFFFF">Assassin->Fighter

Assassin Bonus: +1
Grandmastery Patch: +5
Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialisation: +2
Equalizer Bonus: +6
Unarmed Target: +4
Total: +18

25 STR: +14
Poison Weapon: +30

Scenerio 1: Undead damage bonus only applies to Daystar

Daystar: 14(Daystar) * 2(vs undead) = 28
Total = [(46 * 7) + 14] * 2(critical hit) + 30 = 00FFFF">702

Scenerio 2: Undead damage bonus applies to other bonus damage as well

Total = {{[32 * 2(vs undead)] * 7} + 14} * 2(critical hit) + 30 = 00FFFF">954

---

FFFFFF">Sarevok->Thief

Grandmastery Patch: +5
Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialisation: +2
Equalizer Bonus: +6
Unarmed Target: +4
Total: +17

25 STR: +14
Deathbringer Assault: +200

Scenerio 1: Undead damage bonus only applies to Daystar

Daystar: 14(Daystar) * 2(vs undead) = 28
Total = {[(45 * 5) + 14] * 2(critical hit)} + 200 = 00FFFF">678

Scenerio 2: Undead damage bonus applies to other bonus damage as well

Total = {{[31 * 2(vs undead)] * 5} + 14} * 2(critical hit) + 200 = 00FFFF">848

---

FFFFFF">Kensai->Thief

Grandmastery Patch: +5
Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialisation: +2
Equalizer Bonus: +6
Unarmed Target: +4
Kensai Bonus: +8
Total: +25

25 STR: +14

Scenerio 1: Undead damage bonus only applies to Daystar

Daystar: 14(Daystar) * 2(vs undead) = 28
Total = [(53 * 5) + 14] * 2(critical hit) = 00FFFF">558

Scenerio 2: Undead damage bonus applies to other bonus damage as well

Total = {{[39 * 2(vs undead)] * 5} + 14} * 2(critical hit) = 00FFFF">808

[ 01-04-2005, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

[Dace De'Briago]

The poison weapon ability damage applies against the undead? I think not.

Is the +30 included in the calculations?

[untouchable]

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: FFFFFF">Assassin->Fighter Assassin Bonus: +1 Grandmastery Patch: +5 Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialisation: +2 Equalizer Bonus: +6 Unarmed Target: +4 Total: +18 25 STR: +14 Poison Weapon: +30 Scenerio 1: Undead damage bonus only applies to Daystar Daystar: 14(Daystar) * 2(vs undead) = 28 Total = [(46 * 7) + 14] * 2(critical hit) + 30 = 00FFFF">702 Scenerio 2: Undead damage bonus applies to other bonus damage as well Total = {{[32 * 2(vs undead)] * 7} + 14} * 2(critical hit) + 30 = 00FFFF">954

The + 30 poison damage is included, when it is not the calculations are as follows:

Scenerio 1: Undead damage bonus only applies to Daystar

Daystar: 14(Daystar) * 2(vs undead) = 28
Total = [(46 * 7) + 14] * 2(critical hit) = 00FFFF">672

Scenerio 2: Undead damage bonus applies to other bonus damage as well

Total = {{[32 * 2(vs undead)] * 7} + 14} * 2(critical hit) = 00FFFF">924

Therefore, Sarevok->Thief comes out ahead if senario 1 is true, otherwise the Assasin->Fighter comes out ahead. I don't have the game installed on the computer infront of me so I can't check if poison applies to Undead. My gut tells me that it doesn't, it just seams wrong that poison could have a effect on a skelton, mummy, or lich.

[Dundee Slaytern]

Originally posted by Dace De'Briago: The poison weapon ability damage applies against the undead? I think not. Is the +30 included in the calculations?

Ah, my bad. I forgot about that immunity. untouchable's calculations then, for the Assassin->Fighter. Still, it is a quirky combination of two very underused( raise your hand if you only use Daystar for its' Sunray) weapons.

[ 01-06-2005, 10:29 PM: Message edited by: Dundee Slaytern ]

[Azred]

[img]graemlins/erm.gif[/img] What would 900+ points of damage from a backstab be, in real world terms? Slicing something in half? Bursting it like a balloon? The mind boggles!

[Q'alooaith]

well if we remember Dead gentelmens "The Gamers" 264 points of damage is enough to splatter somone over an entire room..

So 900 odd points would be cutting them in half the long way..

[Armen]

this sort of conversation reminds me of the old (paper) d&d convention that said (from memory) that no human had more the around 60 'real' physical hit points - a long sword does and average of, say, 6 HP damage per hit - a purely physical interpetation suggests that your 60HP character could survive 9 unopposed hits with that sword - clearly not . . .

what your extra HPs signify then is dodging, fighting, luck, the toughness to carry on when injured, the ability to minimise injury, fitness . . . they still go 'down' during a fight but not necessarily from people carving into you - you're fighting 3 orcs - one 'hits' your but you dodge it but in doing so you get put in the path of the other one who swings at you - you manage to block but clumsily so you're arm is numbed which puts you at a disadvantage and the next one actually nicks you - and so on . . .

in that sense a 600 HP backstab is one so good that even someone with superhuman abilities can't avoid dying

[Zuvio]

From a roleplaying perspective (mind you, I'm no P&P D&D-player), a backstab would kill you anyway. Unless you have a mithril chainmail covering every inch of your body. Also, the fireball is hard to dodge either, so that could kill you instantly also.

[Jim]

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: ... Poison Weapon: +30

According to its kit description - the poison weapon ability applies 1hp damage per second for 24 seconds, with 3hp per second for the first 6 seconds. Does this mean that the assassins' poison deals (6*3)+18=36 damage?

Scenerio 1: Undead damage bonus only applies to Daystar Daystar: 14(Daystar) * 2(vs undead) = 28 Total = [(46 * 7) + 14] * 2(critical hit) + 30 = 00FFFF">702

IIRC Daystar does indeed do double damage to undead, but not in the same damage value - similar to the DA assault and elemental damage from the FoA. As an example, assuming we have a character with 15 STR and ** in longswords attacking a true neutral undead:

[Start attack]
Character A attacks undead: hit
Character A does 1D8+4 damage to undead
Character A does 1D8+2 damage to undead
[End attack]

This is the same for Dragon Slayer too. The weapon base damage is doubled, but this cannot be multiplied within a backstab.

It also means that we cannot do "Scenerio 2: Undead damage bonus applies to other bonus damage as well" since it is only the weapon base damage that gets doubled.

This would alter your calculations to:

Daystar: 14
Total = [(32 * 7) +14] * 2(critical hit) + 36 (poison spread over 24 seconds) + 14 (daystar double damage to undead) = 00FFFF">526

FFFFFF">Sarevok->Thief Grandmastery Patch: +5 Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialisation: +2 Equalizer Bonus: +6 Unarmed Target: +4 Total: +17 25 STR: +14 Deathbringer Assault: +200 Scenerio 1: Undead damage bonus only applies to Daystar Daystar: 14(Daystar) * 2(vs undead) = 28 Total = {[(45 * 5) + 14] * 2(critical hit)} + 200 = 00FFFF">678

FFFFFF">Sarevok->Thief becomes:

Daystar: 14
Total = {[(31 * 5) + 14] * 2(critical hit)} + 200 + 14 = 00FFFF">552

FFFFFF">Kensai->Thief Grandmastery Patch: +5 Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialisation: +2 Equalizer Bonus: +6 Unarmed Target: +4 Kensai Bonus: +8 Total: +25 25 STR: +14 Scenerio 1: Undead damage bonus only applies to Daystar Daystar: 14(Daystar) * 2(vs undead) = 28 Total = [(53 * 5) + 14] * 2(critical hit) = 00FFFF">558

FFFFFF">Kensai->Thief becomes

Daystar: 14
Total = [(39 * 5) + 14] * 2(critical hit) + 14 = 00FFFF">432

Another point worth considering is that finding a chaotic evil unarmed undead character without any physical resistance to slashing weapons is going to be mighty hard indeed, but there's probably a few cases that exist.

I've never really paid much attention to daystar since I rarely use longswords in my games, but does it really do 1D8+2 with an additional 4 to evil characters, or is it 1d8+4 to evil characters?

This is certainly an interesting relook on the backstab! I wonder if the equiliser can be used to even greater effect somehow?

[JrKASperov]

As for the 'what does HP mean' discussion I have a simple answer:

This is not the real world. There is magic, and people are brought up in a world of hardship. People have different bodies from ours, and can stand hits from weapons. Their bodies are simply capable of dealing with more. They do not die from a sword slash. They get no hinder from it either.

As for the backstab, are undead capable of being backstabbed?