Defense versus Offense

[Assassin]

Okay, let's face the facts. When given a choice, between a Kensai/Mage or a Tank, if you're looking for power, the Kensai/Mage will almost always win. Why? Is that little +3 to hit and +3 to damage enough to sacrifice Full Plate Armor, along with everything else?

People say that it's 'cheesy', 'overpowered', along with many other things. Just because it can hit things for a whooping- let's hear it folks- +4 damage (assuming that you've dualled at level 13) In a party, that's diddly squat. Sure, it eventually adds up with more and more hits, but you're also getting hit more often. Along with the 'hit recovery' after you get hit, interrupting your attack process. Which means that your character is liable to die more and more often, in the beginning of the game.

Why is attacking power so much better than defensive power (thus, dual-wielding versus using a Shield)? Is it because of the number of attacks aimed at you, ensuring that, no matter how much AC you have, they will get a hit eventually? Is it because everyone loves the 'if they're dead, they can't hurt you' philosophy? I'd actually be interested to know why people favor attacking over defending. I mean, give me a choice between a weapon that gives a bonus to AC against a weapon that gives a bonus against thac0, and I'll choose the thac0 one every time.

(I'm betting that I'll get flamed a million times over saying that everyone knows that defense is better, and that they keep a tank through the entire game- ToB included- because they're so useful. -_-;; )

[ 08-23-2003, 10:31 PM: Message edited by: Assassin ]

[Morgeruat]

one of the main reasons people are interested in offense over defense, is quite simply late in the game your ac doesn't matter, you will get hit. Also in the AD&D rules, you fight just as well if you have 1hp, or 100, thus the better your offense the faster you can mow through guys, and thusly take less damage.

I know esp with my F/T/M dual wielding has saved me numerous times simply because I have the chance to hit more, and thus kill things faster, since my AC is terrible, the extra damage and attack reduces the number of guys that can potentially hit me, evening up the plying field to something I can deal with more effectivly. (also with a (kensai)mage your AC doesn't matter since you'll be staying away from combat most of the time)

[Leslie]

F/M's "don't" really get hit. Their Stoneskin gets hit. And when it's gone, you just use another one. And when they are gone, you can use Protection from Magical Weapons. And when they are gone you can use Improved Mantle.

And if by then you haven't won that fight, you suck.

The other type of fighters who don't have magical protections but rely on AC (not to be hit) but still get hit, they have to withdraw, gulp potions, get healed, ...

They suck.

[Faceman]

Yip
Offense wins game, Defense wins season.
I'm a defense guy.
With stoneskins, Mantle, PfMW,... and proper armor you can equip a party to a state where I really don't care how long the fight takes.
Especially if I have the ToB HLA BardSong.
I've been in fights (ToB) with 50-100 enemies always respawning and left it running for half an hour without being seriously wounded just picking up XP.

Don't get me wrong. I like fast kills, but defense just keeps my folks going.

[Raistlin Majere]

I think the main reason is that the enemies in the game are all killable with ease if you use proper offensive tactics. i mean, lets face it, which spell would your mage rather fill his book with, mantle, which is a powerful spell and all, but lasts only 24 seconds, or finger of death, which might kill the enemy instantly? or spell trap vs. dragons breath(tob)? I think it would be a completely different story in pnp games, because a proper defence can actually save your skin [img]smile.gif[/img] . now in bg1 defence has a greater meaning, cause there arent many foes with crazy -12+ thacos...

[teardropmina]

in most major fights, defence in terms of AC doesn't really help; in most cases, AC only needs to be low enough and give you enough time to kill the mosters. Defence in terms of magic / spell resistence, however, is mega important (resist fear, free action, immune to charm etc.)

Originally posted by Raistlin Majere: now in bg1 defence has a greater meaning, cause there arent many foes with crazy -12+ thacos...

however, in the end, it's still offense saves the day; or defense turns offense. in BG1 as well, lower AC just buys you more time to kill the monsters before they kill you. my favorite defense + offense in BG1 is haste.

[True_Moose]

I beg to differ. Flooring AC is incredibly useful, resistances even more so. I found that with my solo fighter/thief, a Celestial Fury + Flail of the Ages combo was rocked senseless by either CFury + DoE, or with a shield. Trust me, on insane you find that AC is MUCH more important, and without it, especially in solo games, you will die quick and hard. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[teardropmina]

Originally posted by True_Moose: I beg to differ. Flooring AC is incredibly useful, resistances even more so. I found that with my solo fighter/thief, a Celestial Fury + Flail of the Ages combo was rocked senseless by either CFury + DoE, or with a shield. Trust me, on insane you find that AC is MUCH more important, and without it, especially in solo games, you will die quick and hard. [img]smile.gif[/img]

guess it all depends on the conditions and styles of playing; balanced full party game, all magic party etc. and various soloing PCs...now, soloing a mage or sorceror, just how low the AC can you get or does it really matter?

[True_Moose]

True, for a spellcaster type AC is going to be high anyways. It's less important though because you can use other alternatives, such as Stoneskin and Mirror Image. AC is important for fighters, but alternative protections should be made for mages, and thieves (hiding).

[JrKASperov]

Ohh, I usually go for ONE Tank with an INCREDIBLY low AC, as low as I can possibly get, maybe pared with some minor AC improving items because of resistances vs. fire or such. I want at least someone with AC below 12.