***SPOILER*** 2 Paladins in party

[Nerull]

Please note that I put a ***SPOILER*** tag on this thread.
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I am one of these players that likes to tinker with parties (no one else like that out there, is there? ). I was recently thinking of a "knight" party, but hit something of a snag. Composition of party:

PC Cavalier (quintessential knight)
Keldorn (another knight)
Anomen (knight in training)
Mazzy (should be a knight)
Nalia (noblewoman/mage)
Imoen (damsel in distress)

A little tank heavy, but fits my playing style, so otherwise a well-rounded party. The problem is with 2 paladins in the party, and only one Carsomyr. Yes, I realize the Purifier is out there, but it seems rather weak in comparison (this is not my roleplaying side that is pushing me to put out this thread! ). I was thinking of giving Carsomyr to Keldorn, but then that is a heap of magic resistance that my main guy does not get. I know one will get Carsomyr, but what about the other paladin? I was thinking about the following combinations:

• Shield and weapon: good for defense (probably use with Cavalier in this case), but what should be the main weapon? Purifier seems a logical choice, but kind of weak (can't you tell I do not like the Purifier?); however, you lose some magic resistance this way. Maybe Foebane or Axe of the Unyielding would fit better, and would allow upgrade of Carsomyr, but still somewhat unsure.
• Dual-wield: does seem less "knightly" somehow, and lose some defense, but adds some serious offense to compensate. Foebane and Axe of the Unyielding combo is rather under-rated, but it would seem logical in this case to put Purifier in the off-hand, and use the Eye of Tyr to upgrade the Purifier. Foebane in the main hand with Purifier in the off-hand would be rather nice.
• Two-handed weapon: If I went this route (the one I am least sure of), then what would be a good weapon for the second paladin? There are some nice halberds that I never seem to use in any of my games, such as Dragon's Breath, Wave and Ravager. I could always give these weapons to Mazzy, and move up her ranks in Halberd along the way, so not the best choice.

Anyway, I was just throwing this out there for some opinions, mainly because it has been picking at my brain while at work this week (can't you tell I stay focused at my job ).

[Alson]

A party composition thread!? Wow, havn't seen one for quite some time now... [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Your problem concers the party's tanking abilities alone - so I'll only refer to your potential frontliners.

I'll assume you're using Mazzy as a ranged attacker - as your front is quite beefy without her, too. I'll assume your DEX score is higher the Keldorn's (a reasonable assumption), and is high enough for you to serve as a tank. Since Anomen has more tanking potential than K's, I'll assume you'll give the Gauntlets of Better AC to him.

So far, we have on the frontline:
(1) A Cavalier with presumable tanking potential
(2) Grampa Keldorn, with no tanking potential whatsoever
(3) Over-pious Anomen - a noteworthy tank

Wasting equipment on Keldorn in effort to make a tank out of him is futile. Ergo, two handed weapons. Ergo, Carsomyr.

So Carsomyr & Keldorn are out.

Anomen, being a Fighter->Cleric, makes for an excellent tank with the right buffs, especially when using the Gauntlets. As for his equipment... I might be biased on this due to my weakness to Ages, but I would advise you to allocate some points with Anomen in Flails and 2 Weapon Style. Then, dual wield Ages on the main hand and the Defender of Easthaven on the off hand. With AoF, you'll have 45% physical resistance all around (25% against missles, but who cares about those). That's more than decent. Get him the best armor, too.

So far, we have Keldorn with Carso from the middle row, and Anomen taking the cr@p in the frontlines. That leaves us with one bloodthirsty Cavalier.

Heh... an oxymoron.

OK, now we want some kind of hybrid between Anomen and Keldorn (wow... boring and arrogant. Do we really want that? [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) - as in, someone whose ability to dish out damage is just as good as his ability to take a beating. Throw in some M.R. in there, too. I suggest... *drum rolls*

Dual wield Bastard Swords! This should be self evident, but still, since I'm on the roll, I'll go ahead and ramble some more.

In order to have the ability to stand in the frontlines without gulping Superior Healing Potions every other round or so, one must have one of the following:
(1) Stoneskin
(2) Rockbottom AC
(3) Mad physical resistances
(4) Warp-speed regeneration

As a Cavalier, you won't have access to (1), (3) and probably (2), also. We're after (4), then. The arguably best weapon in the game for regeneration purposes, including Sanchuudoku, is Foebane +5 coupled by a high rate of attacks. With 4HP per hit healing you on a consistent rate, and the ability to have your HP float waaay behind your max HP, Foebane +5 is the ultimate stay-alive weapon.

Purifier +5 is nice for the added +30% M.R. and the extra roleplaying points - but is not a must by any means. Feel free to stick any weapon you desire in your off hand. Personal powergaming reccomandation: Belm +2.

Good luck with your new party - theme parties are always fun. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 06-07-2003, 11:03 AM: Message edited by: Alson ]

[Xen]

If he has ToB there are certain Boots wich can provied Stoneskin 2/day.
So for dbest effect equip this boots cast Stoneskin and requip Boots of Speed. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Alson]

Originally posted by Xen: If he has ToB there are certain Boots wich can provied Stoneskin 2/day. So for dbest effect equip this boots cast Stoneskin and requip Boots of Speed. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Since Nerull mentions items such as Purifier, Foebane, Axe of the Unyielding and Eye of Tyr in his post, I think it's safe to assume he has ToB.

It is important to note that these boots (which I will leave anonymous) are noway nearly as good as Stoneskin. They might serve as an extra backup mean... but that's about it.

[Xen]

Originally posted by Alson: quote: Originally posted by Xen: If he has ToB there are certain Boots wich can provied Stoneskin 2/day. So for dbest effect equip this boots cast Stoneskin and requip Boots of Speed. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Since Nerull mentions items such as Purifier, Foebane, Axe of the Unyielding and Eye of Tyr in his post, I think it's safe to assume he has ToB.
[/QUOTE]Sarcasm. It never fails

[ 06-07-2003, 03:22 PM: Message edited by: Xen ]

[Nerull]

Originally posted by Alson: A party composition thread!? Wow, havn't seen one for quite some time now... [img]tongue.gif[/img] Your problem concers the party's tanking abilities alone - so I'll only refer to your potential frontliners. I'll assume you're using Mazzy as a ranged attacker - as your front is quite beefy without her, too. I'll assume your DEX score is higher the Keldorn's (a reasonable assumption), and is high enough for you to serve as a tank. Since Anomen has more tanking potential than K's, I'll assume you'll give the Gauntlets of Better AC to him. So far, we have on the frontline: (1) A Cavalier with presumable tanking potential (2) Grampa Keldorn, with no tanking potential whatsoever (3) Over-pious Anomen - a noteworthy tank Wasting equipment on Keldorn in effort to make a tank out of him is futile. Ergo, two handed weapons. Ergo, Carsomyr. So Carsomyr & Keldorn are out. Anomen, being a Fighter->Cleric, makes for an excellent tank with the right buffs, especially when using the Gauntlets. As for his equipment... I might be biased on this due to my weakness to Ages, but I would advise you to allocate some points with Anomen in Flails and 2 Weapon Style. Then, dual wield Ages on the main hand and the Defender of Easthaven on the off hand. With AoF, you'll have 45% physical resistance all around (25% against missles, but who cares about those). That's more than decent. Get him the best armor, too. So far, we have Keldorn with Carso from the middle row, and Anomen taking the cr@p in the frontlines. That leaves us with one bloodthirsty Cavalier. Heh... an oxymoron. OK, now we want some kind of hybrid between Anomen and Keldorn (wow... boring and arrogant. Do we really want that? [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) - as in, someone whose ability to dish out damage is just as good as his ability to take a beating. Throw in some M.R. in there, too. I suggest... *drum rolls* Dual wield Bastard Swords! This should be self evident, but still, since I'm on the roll, I'll go ahead and ramble some more. In order to have the ability to stand in the frontlines without gulping Superior Healing Potions every other round or so, one must have one of the following: (1) Stoneskin (2) Rockbottom AC (3) Mad physical resistances (4) Warp-speed regeneration As a Cavalier, you won't have access to (1), (3) and probably (2), also. We're after (4), then. The arguably best weapon in the game for regeneration purposes, including Sanchuudoku, is Foebane +5 coupled by a high rate of attacks. With 4HP per hit healing you on a consistent rate, and the ability to have your HP float waaay behind your max HP, Foebane +5 is the ultimate stay-alive weapon. Purifier +5 is nice for the added +30% M.R. and the extra roleplaying points - but is not a must by any means. Feel free to stick any weapon you desire in your off hand. Personal powergaming reccomandation: Belm +2. Good luck with your new party - theme parties are always fun. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Hmmm...I could also use the Defender of Easthaven for my Cavalier's off-hand, giving both AC and physical resistances. Combined with Ring of Gaxx, Ring of Earth Control, Cloak of Sewers, Helm of Balduran and best armor, he would be quite good as a tank.

Keldorn is a bad tank? I had him as a tank in the party before, and he led the party in kills. And he was alone up front w/ Carsomyr, to boot. Just gave him the gauntlets and a strength belt and he went to town. However, Anomen can buff to make him surpass Keldorn, so your point does have validity. I once used Anomen as my main tank over Minsc (used shadowkeeper to change some of his weapon proficiencies around, so that he could eventually dual wield FoA and Crom Faeyr). He was quite good in that capacity. If I give him the gauntlets and a shield (Sentinel +5), he could match my Cavalier's AC just using the FoA. This makes two tanks with low AC. Your thoughts on that?

I notice no one seems to talk about the Axe of the Unyielding much. It also helps with the warp speed regeneration you were talking about (3 points a round), and the off-chance of vorpalling your opponent is quite nice. Does anyone ever use that weapon? I played an Archer once who dual wielded Foebane and Axe of the Unyielding, and regularly left combat with more HP than when he started. That's why I made that suggestion of that combination, but Defender of Easthaven is also a good one.

And yes, I agree that theme parties are quite nice! Spice up the game quite a bit! Throw the Imoen romance on there, and it should be quite good!

[Alson]

Originally posted by Nerull: Hmmm...I could also use the Defender of Easthaven for my Cavalier's off-hand, giving both AC and physical resistances. Combined with Ring of Gaxx, Ring of Earth Control, Cloak of Sewers, Helm of Balduran and best armor, he would be quite good as a tank.

That could work. Crom to Anomen, then?

... If I give him the gauntlets and a shield (Sentinel +5), he could match my Cavalier's AC just using the FoA. This makes two tanks with low AC. Your thoughts on that?

I tend to prefer more offensive-oriented tanks, so I would give Crom to Anomen - but if AC is what you're after than by all means, use Sentinal +4. That's just as good.

I notice no one seems to talk about the Axe of the Unyielding much. It also helps with the warp speed regeneration you were talking about (3 points a round), and the off-chance of vorpalling your opponent is quite nice. Does anyone ever use that weapon?

The Axe of the Unyielding is mighty - definitely one the best weapons in the game. It pairs wonderfully with Korgan, for example. However, since Axes aren't so popular (The gap between Frostreaver & Stonefire to AotU & K'log is just too big), the AotU doesn't come up often in debates. But it's powerful, no doubt.

Interesting fact: Unyielding's vorpal effect has an undocumented save, vs. death at -4.

[Nerull]

That could work. Crom to Anomen, then?...I tend to prefer more offensive-oriented tanks, so I would give Crom to Anomen - but if AC is what you're after than by all means, use Sentinal +4. That's just as good.

Was originally planning not to assemble hammer and instead spread out the strength items, but if he uses Crom Faeyr, I should still be alright (Belts of Hill and Stone Giant Strength available in SoA, plus others in ToB).

The Axe of the Unyielding is mighty - definitely one the best weapons in the game. It pairs wonderfully with Korgan, for example. However, since Axes aren't so popular (The gap between Frostreaver & Stonefire to AotU & K'log is just too big), the AotU doesn't come up often in debates. But it's powerful, no doubt. Interesting fact: Unyielding's vorpal effect has an undocumented save, vs. death at -4.

Actually, my Cavalier was planning to use Axes right from the start, then get slots in other weapons later. You have Azuredge and other throwing axes (only ranged weapons I could use, pretty much), plus there are two good +3 axes available early (Frostreaver and Stonefire). Yes, there is a gap, but with being able to only put 2 slots in a weapon, and with a slot gained every three levels, I could potentially put two slots in Axe, Bastard Sword, and Flail.

So I guess it comes down to which is better in my Cavalier's off-hand, Axe of the Unyielding or Defender of Easthaven? If the former, don't make Crom Faeyr, spread out the strength items, and give Defender of Easthaven to Anomen. If the latter, then make Crom Faeyr, give to Anomen, and give Defender of Easthaven to Cavalier.

I usually go for the roleplaying element more than powergaming, but this sort of discussion is fun.

[Indemaijinj]

Given that we are not talking about fighters who have to worry about grandmastery it is safe to use points in a weapon class that you might not use during a considerable part of the game.

You could use axes early on, then shift to some other weapon class until the heavy-hitters from ToB shows up.

[Nerull]

Originally posted by Indemaijinj: Given that we are not talking about fighters who have to worry about grandmastery it is safe to use points in a weapon class that you might not use during a considerable part of the game. You could use axes early on, then shift to some other weapon class until the heavy-hitters from ToB shows up.

That is true. Dual Wield the +3 Axes, then add in Bastard Swords and/or Flails. Korgan tanked for me once through all of SoA dual-wielding the +3 axes, so should not be a problem. Keldorn gets Carsomyr (he can be the one to face Kangaxx [img]smile.gif[/img] ). The more I look at the way the weapon proficiencies fall, Anomen takes a long time to get to 5 stars in flail and 3 stars in two weapon style (without using shadowkeeper). Thus, it might be better (for a good portion of the game, at least) if I have him use FoA and a shield (until he gets 5 slots in flails and 2 in two weapon style), then give him Defender of Easthaven (for tough fights where he is more worried about soaking up damage, he could always use the Defender over FoA). I just have this image of my Cavalier going in with an axe and sword, so Foebane and Axe of the Unyielding it is.

However, should I give longswords (a more knightly weapon) or halberds (less knightly but later in game more nasty) to Mazzy? There are a number of good types of each, but she is less critical than the rest of the tanks, as she will only use a melee weapon if they get close to her.