caster level and power level

i've done a bit of searching through the archives and i cant find a specific answer to this question, so i'm wondering if anyone's made some discoveries or seen this discussed elsewhere.

there was mention in another thread that you cant cast a level 7 spell at power level 7 on green until you are a level 24 spellcaster. the context was this: if you are going to dual class out of bishop or some other spellcaster to a hybrid or fighting class, you should wait til level 24. (of course, we've since learned some things about spell caster level being very important to spell effectiveness).

now i always thought that the number of green bubbles you got on a spell was a function of your college skill (fire, water, etc.) and the spell level (eg quicksand is a level 6 spell), and never considered that your spellcaster level got into it.

so my question is this. what determines the number of green bubbles you get? is it college skill, but limited by spell caster level?

any insights, or guesses, greatly appreciated.

[Scatter]

Yes. School, Realm and Caster level all determine how certain you are of success. Given 100's in, say, Air and Alchemy for casting Death Cloud, you also need one caster level per dot to make them green. (and it's inclusive, not subtractive: you have to be L24 for them all to be green.)

[Wereboar]

Judging from the divine trap spell, the influence of the scool skill seems to be pretty small. With this spell, the success chance in % is the realms skill. If the scools skill is higher, the chance is raised by 1% for each 5 points difference.

Short ago, i tried to develop 'fighting casters' - spellcasters that raise fighting stats and skills instead of casting ones. I raised the scools skills to be able to learn the spells, but (unlike other games) i didn't raise the realms skills. The number of green dots was much lower than usual.

In addition, i can't recall ever being able to cast a spell in green at level 2 at the time i had the level to learn it. First dot green, second yellow, if i had high skills. With low skills (a starting bishop), even the first dot may be red.

I think the maximum number of dots that may be green depends on your caster level. The real number depends on your realm skill, which might get a bonus due to a high scool skill.

[petertmorgan]

I believe this may also be true with bards using instruments. My level 19 bard playing the Hades Harp (Bard Level 18 required) - Cerebral Hemorrhage seems to be casting it around level 2. Perhaps she'll need to be level 24 bard before playing this at level 7.

Probably true of gadgets too, eh?

[EEWorzelle]

I agree with you, Wereboar, that Magic realms matter a lot for the power levels that can be cast in the green. When letting use rather than points at level-up increase those Skills the Power Levels follow the Points. It is the practices of the party that determine whether this is a temporary, short term disadvantage or a longer term one. Using casters for fighting would deny them some of the Magic experience they require to grow Realms to the highest levels through use alone.

However that is only the case for spells one has had for several levels past the one where it was first obtained. When a Magic Realm is 100, and you get a new Spell in that Realm at the first possible level (Like a Level 7 Spell gotten at Level 18) it can only be cast on the green at Power Level 1 (as the others have said). In one party where my casters had Realms at 100, Intelligence at 100, Piety at 100, School of Mastery 125 and Powercast near 100, some of their Level 7 Spells, at Level 24,were yellow on Power Level 7 (looked at it just 3 nights ago).

Regarding Powercasting Hybrids, that you, Sultan, brought up a short while ago and ChoasTheorist championed while he was still posting, I have been re-examining the Samurai. Another player brought up a while ago that the Alchemist is only has better offensive Spells than the Mage at Level 7 (due to more favorable resistance conditions in the monsters faced). Indeed the Mage sixth Level Spells are pretty fantastic, including Blizzard and Banish. Toward the end of the game, a Samurai could be casting those on the green at PL 6 or 7, even if their Level 7 spells won't be fully developed yet. I was examing a design where Powercast could be obtained by about Level 12, Powerstrike a half dozen levels later (18), Dexterity maxed about 3 or 4 levels later and Senses solid and increasing near the end. I would definitely use a shield and ignore Dual Weapons Skill in that case, but that is not required for the concept. I was considering the Mook for this, in fact, so the Giant Sword would be another way to go later. Humm, I like that.

Peter, yes that is exactly what I observe with my Bards. The Power Level they cast at is automatic, and not always the highest. If you have the combat dialog set to verbose and watch carefully you can see the Power Levels they use. Unfortunately, against high resistance, on the Peak, I find that the Bards offensive Spells often give exactly zero damage. I even gave my Bard Powercast in an early game but it did nothing for the Bard. With Haste, Restoration, and an incredible Melee capability, my Bard is only second after the Priest for mvc in my parties. Third is the Alchemist which stands out among the Attacking Casters.

[ 09-16-2003, 04:53 PM: Message edited by: EEWorzelle ]

thanks all the replies, everyone. those are all excellent observations and really help.

i checked the 4 spell casters i have on ascension peak at the moment, and the two bishops, who are level 24 and 25 (different parties) cannot cast 7 green on level 7 spells with only 98/99 in the realm (eg earth). further, the bishop with 98 in the realm cannot cast a level 6 spell at 7 green (it's light green). i think the difference is that she has an alchemy in the 80's where the other has alchemy in the 90's.

if i can try to paraphrase the comments of wearboar, scatter, and eew, and put it together with my own observations, it sounds like it works something like this:

there is a level requirement to casting green dots, where you get 1 green dot for each exp level equal to or above the exp level at which you qualified to learn the spell (eg you can cast level 1 spells at 7 green at exp level 7 or higher), subject to minimum levels in the realm (eg fire) and school (eg mage).

too bad we'll have to reverse engineer these requirements if we want them!

...

the context for my question was this.

i was considering how nice the level 2 buffs were for mage (enchange blade and missile shield) and level 3 buffs were for priest (rest all, armor plate, magic screen), and thought, hey, why not start as a bishop, run up those two schools to get those spells at level 5, then dual over to alchemist for the faster level ups and killer attacking spells. you would only be down about 12,000 experience on having started as an alchemist with the benefit of those lovely buffs.

BUT, if there are caster-level or school-level requirements above and beyond those for getting the spell, then this dual-classed bishop would get little more than the additional spell points from having the level 1-3 spells in their repertoire.

on the other hand, remaining bishop until level 11, when you qualify for green power level 7 in level 3 spells, which also happens to be when you can buy all those nice level 4 spells at crock's. of course, you'd have to resign yourself to never casting the non-alchemist ones at any significant level, but those extra spell points arent bad either...

and perhaps not a bad trade-off for leveling up 750,000 exp points slower the first half of the game (by level 18, it would be negligible).

[Scatter]

Yes, when you change from Bishop into a caster or hybrid, your effective caster level is cumulative with that school you change into. One of my favorite solos was Lord for four levels, Rogue for one, Bishop for 8, then Lord again, taking a few more Bishop levels after Dual was high enough to give the Bishop the extra bashes. Divinity was casting at all green in all spells at level 29 total, the hybrid+rogue equivalent of 24 caster levels. The other three schools were casting according to Bishop levels. I've gone back and developed this one a little more extensively from a save just before Ascending; i've got a bunch of Solos i'm playing with extreme development, into the advancements beyond Character Level 50 (Class levels can be 50 each, for a possible total of 750 possible Attribute- and Skill-point awarding advancements.) I didn't plan on giong beyond getting one Hobbit and two Humans past opening all the bonus skills, but it's looking like too boring to even go that far; once all the mobs are less than 3/4 your level, nothing can kill you anymore, so the only thrill is anticipating your next level, and they're just not worth it to me after enough of them...

[Wereboar]

i was considering how nice the level 2 buffs were for mage (enchange blade and missile shield) and level 3 buffs were for priest (rest all, armor plate, magic screen), and thought, hey, why not start as a bishop, run up those two schools to get those spells at level 5, then dual over to alchemist for the faster level ups and killer attacking spells. you would only be down about 12,000 experience on having started as an alchemist with the benefit of those lovely buffs.

I did somthing similar in a few games. I wanted to have a devensive caster (along with 5 missile-only rangers, for example), which had access to all the important protection/buff spells. A bishop has it all, but he also has powerful offensive spells. So i played as bishop until level 8, learning all the non-offensive mage spells (x-ray, missile shield, elemental shield, enchanted blade...). Then i switched to priest.

It worked well - except that i had to delay level 8 for a while until i had wizardry 45. Most of these spells are cast outside combat, where failing isn't a desaster. And when the realms skills went up, i think i could cast them quite high in light yellow. (have to look for the old saves to check)

fantastic. thanks for the confirmation, wearboar. of course it's disappointing to realise i'm not the first to come up with this [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Wereboar]

Big surprise.

I reloaded my archery party. The caster was bishop level 8 + priest level 15, with 100 divinity, 47 wizardry and 95-100 in the realms.

He is able to cast all his mage spells at level 7 in green (except x-ray, which is very light yellow at 7; mental is the realm with only 95 skill).

I also reloaded my 'music' party (3 bards, 2 gadgeteer, and a similar bishop-priest). Don't have the numbers with me, but he was at a much lower level, and was able t cast the mage spells at level 3 to 4 in green.

It looks like all 'caster' levels are used, not only levels in a class that can use the specific spell. And realm skill makes a big difference (about 10 points for one power level)