Dr. Faustus?

Baln · 01-09-2002, 10:54 AM

Just an observation while in English class: In the Watchers Keep Level 1, the objects placed on the altar for the ritual are a book, a bell and a candle. In Dr. Faustus, those are the things Faustus steals from the Pope, and then the Friars take them when they sing the curse. Coincidence, or reference?

fable · 01-09-2002, 12:04 PM

General coincidence. Traditionally in the RCC, a bell, book and candle was required to perform all rites of expulsion, exorcism and excommunication.

Nifft the Nimble · 01-10-2002, 04:13 PM

In Nethack (free game, lots of fun despite ASCII graphics), though, you need a Bell, Book and Candle to get to a lower level of Hell ... that may be what they're alluding to.

-- Nifft, choked to death on a dwarf corpse in L2 of the Mines

Melusine · 01-11-2002, 07:33 AM

Heh... I thought this post would be about Marlowe and Vongoethe

Can you say corny??
So it may very well be a reference...

fable · 01-11-2002, 12:23 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Melusine:
Heh... I thought this post would be about Marlowe and Vongoethe Can you say corny??
So it may very well be a reference...

I thought of that von Goethe reference as kind of a fun tip-of-the-hat to one of the great writers of the past, and enjoyed it. [img]smile.gif[/img] Bioware and Black Isle both tend to do that in their games, though there's a long history behind those professional nods. In one city in Betrayal at Krondor there's a tavern called The Green Cat, which was a deliberate bow to Fritz Leiber (author of the novel, The Green Cat, as well as the Fafhrd and Grey Mouser series), the great fantasy author who was also a distinguished psychologist. And books have done that sort of thing for years--Tolkien borrowed names from many medieval sources to show his indebtedness to the original authors' styles and goals.

Micah Foehammer · 01-11-2002, 12:26 PM

The bell, book and candle sequence was also used by Interplay(?) in one of the old "all-text" adventure games they produced a number of years ago (might have been Zork in fact).

If THAT doesn't date me, nothing else will.

Melusine · 01-11-2002, 12:37 PM

quote:
Originally posted by fable:

I thought of that von Goethe reference as kind of a fun tip-of-the-hat to one of the great writers of the past, and enjoyed it. [img]smile.gif[/img] Bioware and Black Isle both tend to do that in their games, though there's a long history behind those professional nods. In one city in Betrayal at Krondor there's a tavern called The Green Cat, which was a deliberate bow to Fritz Leiber (author of the novel, The Green Cat, as well as the Fafhrd and Grey Mouser series), the great fantasy author who was also a distinguished psychologist. And books have done that sort of thing for years--Tolkien borrowed names from many medieval sources to show his indebtedness to the original authors' styles and goals.

Whoa, take it easy there, mate!

All I was saying is that I found it a bit corny to have a quest about a sold soul and name the two main characters Marlowe and Vongoethe.
I love both authors, I wasn't suggesting anything to the contrary. I'm personally just not a big fan of such things - as if Goethe needs a tip-of-the-hat from a computer game! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Actually I love these kinds of references in books and games, but I prefer them a little more subtle - these were pretty blatant.
And about Tolkien: sorry, but that's a different thing entirely, though I see your point.

fable · 01-11-2002, 12:48 PM

quote:
Originally posted by Melusine:

Whoa, take it easy there, mate!
All I was saying is that I found it a bit corny to have a quest about a sold soul and name the two main characters Marlowe and Vongoethe.
I love both authors, I wasn't suggesting anything to the contrary. I'm personally just not a big fan of such things - as if Goethe needs a tip-of-the-hat from a computer game! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

You mistake me. [img]smile.gif[/img] I'm not annoyed. There's something great about people having differing viewpoints over the same thing, IMO. The only way to annoy me is probably to assume what my opinions are going to be on any given issue.

I've been trying to think in the meantime of any other deliberately vague references in CRPGs games to books, etc, but I'm drawing a blank.

01-11-2002, 07:33 AM	#4
Melusine Dracolisk Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Amsterdam, The Netherlands Age: 45 Posts: 6,541	Heh... I thought this post would be about Marlowe and Vongoethe Can you say corny?? So it may very well be a reference... __________________ [img]\"hosted/melusine.jpg\" alt=\" - \" /><br />Your voice is ambrosia

01-11-2002, 12:23 PM	#5
fable Quintesson Join Date: March 17, 2001 Location: Where I am. Posts: 1,089	quote: Originally posted by Melusine: Heh... I thought this post would be about Marlowe and Vongoethe Can you say corny?? So it may very well be a reference... I thought of that von Goethe reference as kind of a fun tip-of-the-hat to one of the great writers of the past, and enjoyed it. [img]smile.gif[/img] Bioware and Black Isle both tend to do that in their games, though there's a long history behind those professional nods. In one city in Betrayal at Krondor there's a tavern called The Green Cat, which was a deliberate bow to Fritz Leiber (author of the novel, The Green Cat, as well as the Fafhrd and Grey Mouser series), the great fantasy author who was also a distinguished psychologist. And books have done that sort of thing for years--Tolkien borrowed names from many medieval sources to show his indebtedness to the original authors' styles and goals.

01-11-2002, 12:26 PM	#6
Micah Foehammer Ma'at - Goddess of Truth & Justice Join Date: November 15, 2001 Location: Asheville, NC Posts: 3,253	The bell, book and candle sequence was also used by Interplay(?) in one of the old "all-text" adventure games they produced a number of years ago (might have been Zork in fact). If THAT doesn't date me, nothing else will. __________________ “Every tavern’s an opportunity, I say.”

01-11-2002, 12:37 PM	#7
Melusine Dracolisk Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Amsterdam, The Netherlands Age: 45 Posts: 6,541	quote: Originally posted by fable: I thought of that von Goethe reference as kind of a fun tip-of-the-hat to one of the great writers of the past, and enjoyed it. [img]smile.gif[/img] Bioware and Black Isle both tend to do that in their games, though there's a long history behind those professional nods. In one city in Betrayal at Krondor there's a tavern called The Green Cat, which was a deliberate bow to Fritz Leiber (author of the novel, The Green Cat, as well as the Fafhrd and Grey Mouser series), the great fantasy author who was also a distinguished psychologist. And books have done that sort of thing for years--Tolkien borrowed names from many medieval sources to show his indebtedness to the original authors' styles and goals. Whoa, take it easy there, mate! All I was saying is that I found it a bit corny to have a quest about a sold soul and name the two main characters Marlowe and Vongoethe. I love both authors, I wasn't suggesting anything to the contrary. I'm personally just not a big fan of such things - as if Goethe needs a tip-of-the-hat from a computer game! [img]tongue.gif[/img] Actually I love these kinds of references in books and games, but I prefer them a little more subtle - these were pretty blatant. And about Tolkien: sorry, but that's a different thing entirely, though I see your point. __________________ [img]\"hosted/melusine.jpg\" alt=\" - \" /><br />Your voice is ambrosia

01-11-2002, 12:48 PM	#8
fable Quintesson Join Date: March 17, 2001 Location: Where I am. Posts: 1,089	quote: Originally posted by Melusine: Whoa, take it easy there, mate! All I was saying is that I found it a bit corny to have a quest about a sold soul and name the two main characters Marlowe and Vongoethe. I love both authors, I wasn't suggesting anything to the contrary. I'm personally just not a big fan of such things - as if Goethe needs a tip-of-the-hat from a computer game! [img]tongue.gif[/img] You mistake me. [img]smile.gif[/img] I'm not annoyed. There's something great about people having differing viewpoints over the same thing, IMO. The only way to annoy me is probably to assume what my opinions are going to be on any given issue. I've been trying to think in the meantime of any other deliberately vague references in CRPGs games to books, etc, but I'm drawing a blank.

01-09-2002, 10:54 AM	#1
Baln Welcomed New User Join Date: January 9, 2002 Location: United States Posts: 1	Just an observation while in English class: In the Watchers Keep Level 1, the objects placed on the altar for the ritual are a book, a bell and a candle. In Dr. Faustus, those are the things Faustus steals from the Pope, and then the Friars take them when they sing the curse. Coincidence, or reference?

01-09-2002, 12:04 PM	#2
fable Quintesson Join Date: March 17, 2001 Location: Where I am. Posts: 1,089	General coincidence. Traditionally in the RCC, a bell, book and candle was required to perform all rites of expulsion, exorcism and excommunication.

01-10-2002, 04:13 PM	#3
Nifft the Nimble Avatar Join Date: October 4, 2001 Location: NYC Forever! Age: 51 Posts: 520	In Nethack (free game, lots of fun despite ASCII graphics), though, you need a Bell, Book and Candle to get to a lower level of Hell ... that may be what they're alluding to. -- Nifft, choked to death on a dwarf corpse in L2 of the Mines

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