Is it just me or.....spoilers

[Boutte]

ToB in my opinion pretty much sucks. Watchers Keep was pretty cool but other than that I wouldn't have payed a dime for it if I had known what I was getting. The computer opponents use the stinkiest cheese I have EVER seen in a computer game. The most annoying tactic is when you have essentially defeated a tough opponent they manage to dissapear and respawn completely healed and with all of thier spells restored.(Yaga Shura, Mellisan) I know that the idea is to challenge the players skill but this seems like a cheap way to do it.

The final battle really epitomizes what I'm talking about. I haven't managed to finish this one yet but I can see where it's going. Not only is she hugely powerful but you have to defeat her over and over and over. You can't even position your team to your advantage the computer puts you where it wants them.
And by the time you have beaten her twice you don't have any spell left because you can't rest between battles. Don't even get me started on the dissappearing opponents in the final challenge at the planar dungeon.

I think the makers were just milking the engine for all it was worth (see IWD I+II) and didn't really care about game play because knew every one was going to buy NWN regardless.

[Xen]

Yes ToB sucks in a way:" Go there kill that"...
SoA has much better story IMHO and I don`t know. ToB is good but not as good as Soa.

BTW are you playing normal ToB or Ascension?

[Leslie]

Originally posted by Boutte: ToB in my opinion pretty much sucks. Watchers Keep was pretty cool but other than that I wouldn't have payed a dime for it if I had known what I was getting. The computer opponents use the stinkiest cheese I have EVER seen in a computer game. The most annoying tactic is when you have essentially defeated a tough opponent they manage to dissapear and respawn completely healed and with all of thier spells restored.(Yaga Shura, Mellisan) I know that the idea is to challenge the players skill but this seems like a cheap way to do it. The final battle really epitomizes what I'm talking about. I haven't managed to finish this one yet but I can see where it's going. Not only is she hugely powerful but you have to defeat her over and over and over. You can't even position your team to your advantage the computer puts you where it wants them. And by the time you have beaten her twice you don't have any spell left because you can't rest between battles. Don't even get me started on the dissappearing opponents in the final challenge at the planar dungeon. I think the makers were just milking the engine for all it was worth (see IWD I+II) and didn't really care about game play because knew every one was going to buy NWN regardless.

That is why you have difficulty levels. I remember my first few runs thorugh SOA+TOB. I knew almost nothing about spells, saving throws, HLA's, ...

I think I played on "easy" 2 or 3 games. Then I switched to "core", learned some spells and their meanings, learned AI tactics, backstabing, ...

I now play on "insane" and currenty playing F/M/T solo no reloads game and I am in the underdark. Too easy. I may make a mistake sometime, but the game is not challenging too much.

I need opponents that heal themselves and try all those cheesy tactics and I try to beat them with as little cheese as possible.
Find my thread about Aragorn - I played solo game and never used any summon spell. No abusing of stupid AI. I just took all the damage that some lich or two threw at me.

Final thought - the game is not too difficult, you don't know it well enough.
Find your difficulty level, enjoy, learn, have fun, and then challenge yourself with another step up.

[Pirengle]

Originally posted by Boutte:

ToB in my opinion pretty much sucks. Watchers Keep was pretty cool but other than that I wouldn't have payed a dime for it if I had known what I was getting.

Watcher's Keep is rad. Reminds me of a computer game I used to play at the library about ~8 years ago. Pure dungeon crawl, with some twisted puzzles. Graphics reeked, but other than that it was a fun way to spend a rainy afternoon when you've read all the interesting books in the children's commons...

The computer opponents use the stinkiest cheese I have EVER seen in a computer game. The most annoying tactic is when you have essentially defeated a tough opponent they manage to dissapear and respawn completely healed and with all of thier spells restored.(Yaga Shura, Mellisan) I know that the idea is to challenge the players skill but this seems like a cheap way to do it.

Yep. Chalk your reponse right up there with the BG2 sages at Ironworks; several of them have said the same thing. I walked into ToB expecting the enemies were cheese-resistant. Poor me. [img]tongue.gif[/img] The immune-to-instant-death really bothers me. Instead of being immune, the critters should have high resistances, including physical as well as magical and elemental. The spellcasters should recognize when players cast certain spells and be throwing out Death Spells and whatnot instead of True Sight when all party members are visible.

The final battle really epitomizes what I'm talking about. I haven't managed to finish this one yet but I can see where it's going. Not only is she hugely powerful but you have to defeat her over and over and over. You can't even position your team to your advantage the computer puts you where it wants them. And by the time you have beaten her twice you don't have any spell left because you can't rest between battles. Don't even get me started on the dissappearing opponents in the final challenge at the planar dungeon.

There's a way around it, and it involves a certain spell. Either that, or choose your spells carefully. Me, I bought out Lazarus' inventory before heading off to that battle and packed plenty of potions.

Don't be afraid to do planning outside the battle. Before the last battle, I sat down with pen and paper and wrote down all the stuff I had, who got certain spells and potions, chose my spells carefully, and made a basic gameplan: "when X event happens, I will do Y to counter." That sort of thing.

Auto-Pause is your best friend when it comes to this battle. Either that, or pause the game when an enemy fires off sequencers/contingencies to see what exactly happened, then plan out what to do from there.

Best advice in the universe: Keep at least two Ruby Rays of Reversal and at least one Spell Thrust handy, scroll or memorized spell. RRR is an Alteration spell, and is NOT blocked by Spell Immunity: Abjuration. As for the Spell Thrust, I use this only when I notice the enemy putting a Spell Shield on itself. Rather than waste an expensive Spellstrike or RRR on that Spell Shield, I fire a Spell Thrust, which eats the Spell Shield. If the enemy casts Spell Shield then SI: Abjuration, well, that's why you have two of them. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I think the makers were just milking the engine for all it was worth (see IWD I+II) and didn't really care about game play because knew every one was going to buy NWN regardless.

I don't know the exact dates, but I believe the release order was:
BG1
TotSC
IWD
BG2
IWD2
ToB
NWN

The Icewind Dale series is nothing like the Baldur's Gate series. I made the mistake of walking into IWD thinking it was a poor copy of BG1, and promptly got my a* handed to me by goblins. Yes, goblins. IWD2 also follows the ADnD 3rd edition feats and skills, and from the (few) reviews I've read, the IWD2 skill and feat system is a bit different than the version in NWN.

And no, not *everyone* has NWN. I don't. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[Xen]

I played IWD2 but i did not like it. Probably becuase i didn`t put my mind to it. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[pritchke]

I liked ToB for the most part. First time I played the final battle it was challenging and I liked it but playing it for a second time I find it more annoying than anything due to the level draining creatures sucking all my spells away and having to fight the same battle 4 times. If you have a high level thief with set traps the final battle is easy and pointless, without the thief it is annoying, and repetitive.

IWD series is great and I have no complaints with it.

[Boutte]

Well I'm glad to see that I'm not the only person that was annoyed by that final battle. The first time I played BG1 I had so much trouble with the skeleton warriors toward the end I got so pissed off I uninstalled the game without finishing it(something I've never done with any other game)and never played any BG again till I ran across Iron Works and decided to give it another try. If it wasn't for this group I would have missed out on what has become one of my favorite games.

So thanks to everybody for thier help. I'll have to invite everybody over for some cajun Gumbo and Ettouffe.(good thing everybody lives so far away)

Xen,
I'm playing normal ToB. I haven't tried any mods yet but after I finish this game I'm going to try some. any suggestions as to witch are the most fun.

Pirengle,
I wanted to send you special thank you as you have helped me several times but I haven't figured out how to e-mail from this forum yet. I hope you see this.

[Dace De'Briago]

Originally posted by Boutte: You can't even position your team to your advantage the computer puts you where it wants them.

Pleasantly, the computer quite predictably puts you in the same place every time. Nice and close to Melissan

Heal yourself each time you defeat her, and before taking on the 'sub bosses'. Cast improved haste on your fighters (and other boost spells) and put them next to Melissans spawn point.

Use one character to activate the 'sub boss' area. Voila. Melissan appears surrounded by Improved hasted fighters and summons. Wonk her. Repeat.

Problem solved, Melissan = dead. Battle = easy.

I think the computer actually positions you TO YOUR ADVANTAGE. Just concentrate on Melissan, and ignore her summons.