icon sizing
 

So, I was looking at the icons of the various giants that Uatu and I have done. There's some good stuff there. :D I was also thinking about the icons of the dragons that I have recently uploaded. (Which I think are also pretty good.) And, I realized that there is a pretty big size discrepency, not just that the dragons are bigger, but that we're using the 1e sizes for dragons (making them quite a bit smaller) and the 2e sizes for giants (making them quite a bit larger).

What I was wondering, is it worth changing the sizes of one of the sets? A fair amount of DC icons are sized independently of 1e or 2e. For example, all of the animals that appear in the real world (including humans) are sized to the real world.

I would like to hear what everyone thinks, but the people who make icons get a bigger say. :)
Remember, a valid option is to leave them as they are.

Re: icon sizing
 

Not true! Sizes are an iffy thing from 1e to 2e, as follows...

Dragons:
The flat sizes of 1e became the "base sizes" of 2e; however, 2e basically decided that the "base size" would be the 1e size minus the tail of a juvenile (4th age category out of 12) dragon. 1e had 10 age categories (or was that 8?), and vaguely noted that dragons would be bigger or smaller based on age, but was not more exact than that. So, 2e is ONE approximation/specification of 1e's stated sizes, but as 2e also made dragons more powerful in general (well, I guess it is hard to rate, but I think so), I would say that both power and size increased in 2e.

Giants:
Giants were given a size enhancement in 2e as well, directly changing their size values (I think I put up a table in my giants page). I do think that giants were a bit small in 1e (hill giants weren't much different from ogres); bigger giants always make a bigger impression, I say :D

So, at this point, actually, all of my dragon/giant icons (and manikus' icons, as he followed my table) would match with 2e, not 1e (well, again, the dragons thing is hard to say).

One dragon interpretation of the 1e sizes would of course be to simply use the base size as the whole length of the dragon... which would make them significantly smaller. If we decided to use this interpretation, we could of course use our bigger dragon icons as very old or ancient dragons (from 1e), for example...

Re: icon sizing
 

So, our dragons are bigger than 1e adults and smaller than 2e adults? :D

I have no problem with leaving the dragons the size they are now. I do think I may rename all of them as juvenile for my website, and I might make some bigger icons somewhere down the road (far, far down the road :)). Or, I may do nothing, as I'm feeling a bit lazy and apathetic at the moment. :D:D:D

Re: icon sizing
 

Well, I tried to follow the "middle ground" as one might put it... hopefully the sizes are fine for both 1e and 2e - although, the dragons as they are now (as in the icons) are huge compared to other similar-leveled creatures (as in XP) (so I am guessing that Gary Gygax may not have intended for the tails to be excluded from the sizes given).

If that is true, we could always set the large dragons as the "very old" or "ancient" versions (as the 2e sizes for the older sizes are just ridiculously huge).

If we set the current sizes as the "oldest" versions, we could also have somewhat doable Bahamut/Sardior/Tiamat icons, if we follow suit :D

Re: icon sizing
 

Speaking of Sardior, my experiment for the gem dragons failed miseably. :( Back to the drawing board, I guess.
As for Tiamat, I have a sketch somewhere that puts her at about 10 icon squares... :) (Nothing for Bahamut, as the project I made the sketch for had her battling Marduk.)

Re: icon sizing
 

Here's a little something I did just for fun. :)

On the giants image, the short hash marks are every foot, the longer hash marks every five feet.

The giants are from left to right:
cloud, frost, stone, fire, hill, and ettin.

You should be able to figure out the dragons by their color. :D

click on the image to see full-sized

Re: icon sizing
 

Hey, that's pretty cool :) Looks like we can have a huge battle of all 5 chromatic dragons against some hapless party... :D The sizes do look quite good together.

The giants also look quite nice together - actually, I had a storm giant icon in the works for quite a while, but I never got around to finishing it (it is still quite rough) - my main problem is fitting him (and his animation) in the small space that I want to fit him in... (Also, the 1e description and art does not mention him using a two-handed sword in combat as 2e does (the damage given is the same, though) - was thinking about what to equip him with (leaning towards nothing, as in 1e art))...

I do want to have a storm giant at some point (the king of giants after all)... ;) No titans, though! :D Titans and their silly togas!

Too bad about the gem dragons... But what of Tiamat, are you going to "iconify" it? :D

Re: icon sizing
 

Example of gem dragons (young adult/juvenile):

Crystal Dragons
1e:
4-6 HD (20 hp), AC2, Damage 1d4/1d4/2d6 (Breath: blindness, 2/day) (Spells (30%): magic-user: 1/1, druid: 1/1) (Suggestion: 35%)
2e:
10 HD (av. 45 hp), AC 0, Damage 1d6+4/1d6+4/2d6+4 (Breath: 4d4+4 + blindness, once/3 rounds) (Spells: priest: 1)

Amethyst Dragons
1e:
8-10 HD (av. 36 hp), AC -2, Damage 1d8/1d8/5d6 (Breath: death, 2/day) (Spells (50%): magic-user: 1/2/2, druid: 2/1/2/2) (Suggestion: 65%)
2e:
14 HD (av. 63 hp), AC -4, Damage 1d10+4/1d10+4/5d6+4 (Breath: 8d8+4 + unconsciousness, once/3 rounds) (Spells: priest: 1)

As you can see, there is a significant power difference!

(Note, however, that gem dragons used to have a suggestion power that seems to have been lost in 2e.)

Re: icon sizing
 

I thought I read somewhere that in 1e the gem dragons also had psionics... Is this true?

I've also got a storm giant in the works, and decided against a 2-handed sword. The 2e art I was looking at didn't show him with one, so I though I wouldn't either, just b/c it would make the icon much more space consuming. :) Actually the 2e Monstrous Compendium just shows a black and white headshot, and the 2e Monstrous Manual has a color version, but the color is wrong- they have him human colored, and incidentally, wearing a toga. :)

Tiamat~ let's see, if she's 60 feet long, that means that the icon is roughly 10 icon squares...my Tiamat in the works is way too small. :(

Re: icon sizing
 

Oh, that's right - forgot to mention, 1e gem dragons have a 50% chance of having psionics, while 2e gem dragons always have psionics:
Crystal: 100 PSPs, 2 minor disciplines (2e: 1 science, 2 devotions)
Amethyst: 250 PSPs, 3 minor, 2 major disciplines (2e: 3 sciences, 5 devotions)

(There are some other little differences as well...)

Re: storm giants

Yeah, the two-handed sword would basically make the icon several times wider (and higher) than it needs to be... Bare fists might be best (or an electric aura?)...

Re: Tiamat

Well, although the official 2e stats had Tiamat ridiculously huge (360' long with tail), and that is just not doable (in my opinion, anyway), we COULD just assume that the dragons we did already are the maximum (oldest) size, and then maybe Tiamat would be just about 12 squares or so (and Bahamut something like 14, Sardior something like 8) :) And, if your Tiamat has more body than tail, then... maybe 10? :D

Re: icon sizing
 

I'm trying to find Tiamat in 2e... I did see a mention that she doesn't have wings...

Re: icon sizing
 

Alright, I've found 'em. (For some reason I'd removed the Dragonomicon from my hard drive, so I had to bust out the DVD. :D)

Bahamut is listed as 360', half of which is tail.
Tiamat is listed as 385' slightly more than half of which is tail (200').

I'm still looking for Sardior...

Re: icon sizing
 

Sardior never had statistics for 2e (so I just estimated them). 2e hated almost all unique creatures (except maybe the Tarrasque) and got rid of almost all of them...

2e had more than one for Tiamat, not sure for Bahamut (they had one appearance in Polyhedron, and then Tiamat had a (stronger) incarnation in Powers & Pantheons (Forgotten Realms) as a deity). Maybe there were others...

Re: icon sizing
 

By the way, I put the 1e stats for gem dragons on my homepage (the 1st edition tables from the DC page), as well as the Polyhedron Tiamat and Bahamut stats...

Re: icon sizing
 

I found 2e Bahamut and Tiamat in the Dragonomicon. :)

I found a great site called the "Dragon Dex" that lists all occurrences of dragons in AD&D from 1e to 3.5e. Some dragons get more love than others.

Re: icon sizing
 

The Draconomicon - were they in there? I will check later... I do remember some stats, but I thought they were incomplete...

Re: icon sizing
 

They had the two of them, several gold dragons, one silver and one red as the dragons hall of fame. They had full stats for all of them.

Re: icon sizing
 

Ah - the individual dragons. I guess I missed Bahamut and Tiamat in there! Will take another look...

Re: icon sizing
 

I didn't really read the descriptions, I was just making sure that they had everything. If you find anything interesting, let me know. :)

Re: icon sizing
 

Hmm - comparing the descriptions (stats), the Draconomicon stats are the smallest, the Polyhedron is next, and then the Powers & Pantheons is biggest (only stats for Tiamat, though). Interestingly, the Draconomicon has Tiamat larger than Bahamut (Bahamut is always bigger everywhere else).

(1e stats are the smallest of all.)

Re: icon sizing
 

In the Dragonomicon (I'll look at Powers and Pantheons after school), Tiamat is bigger, with a super-long tail. I think this is weird for a western style dragon.

Have you seen any mention whether or not Tiamat has wings?

I also realized yesterday when looking a t my old attempt, that I had the coloring wrong. It'll be hard to get that stripe down the back. :)

Re: icon sizing
 

Powers & Pantheons: ??? (280' body, 220' tail)
Polyhedron: Winged (Bahamut is wingless), 360' total (tail:body 2:1)
Draconomicon: Winged (185' body, 200' tail)
Monster Manual: ??? (60')

(All stats note a flying movement rate.)

As for coloring... I also recently noticed that I probably should have made the remorhaz's back red (it glows red when it is mad). Ah, well - maybe some other day (or maybe I will just assume that it is not doing it...)

Re: icon sizing
 

I only asked about the wings b/c I've seen mention in several forums that she is stated as being windgless in something called the "Blood Wars". I haven't tracked down what this is, so that's all I know. But I figured flying is listed, so she might have wings, not that a deity needs wings to fly.
Honestly, I may just go with the most aesthetically pleasing, that is were I ever to try and make her.

Re: icon sizing
 

I think huge wings were specified for many of the descriptions; in general, only gold dragons and mist dragons seem to lack wings most of the time (2e added wings back to golds, but only sometimes :D ...I think Dragonlance made its golds winged (and rather like other dragons), too...)

Bahamut seems to look like a normalish dragon, but Polyhedron made it wingless (like a gold)... Ah, well...

Re: icon sizing
 

Do adamantine dragons have wings?

I've decided (while sitting in a rather yawn-inspiring economics lecture) that my Tiamat will have wings b/c all of the chromatic dragons have wings, and without them, she would look like a super large hydra.

I'm still thinking about Bahamut, who I will probably portray with wings. And I will probably portray him more like a traditional metallic dragon, not so much like the gold.

Re: icon sizing
 

I think adamantine dragons have wings... In general, the only dragons without wings should be the gold and mist, I think. (Basically, I think they were intended to be the "oriental dragons" (also, if I remember correctly, there were only the white, black, green, blue, red, and gold dragons originally)... of course, the Fiend Folio introduced specifically oriental dragons later, but I think they are redundant.)

But right, Tiamat WOULD look like a huge, multicolored hydra without her wings - so I guess it would be better to give them to her :D

And Bahamut seems to have a normal dragon body in the Monster Manual picture (although it is a "bust" shot).

So, you're gonna do a Bahamut icon, too? :D

Re: icon sizing
 

I figure, if I ever get around to doing a Tiamat, I had better do a Bahamut as well. If I get around to doing some gem dragons, I will also do a Sardior.
Someday. :D:D:D

Re: icon sizing
 

Do you remember the old dungeons and dragons cartoon? they had the evil wizard "Venger" and he occasionally caught the wrath of tiamat, but of course as the "big boss" he never died. They portrayed tiamat as being able to fly, but I don't remember if it was becuz of wings...

ST
guess I'm no help on this one ;)

Re: icon sizing
 

The cartoon was cool! And then I started playing Dungeons & Dragons...the show was less cool once I knew what they were talking about. I guess a lot of things in life work that way.

Tiamat was definitely cool, though. Even if she bears very little resemblance to the AD&D creature of the same name. The cartoon version definitely had wings. She was also red and a bit on the small side. Some of the perspective shots had her looking 40-50 feet total, while others had her looking much bigger, maybe twice that, but I found one image when dealing with the evil wizard, that she appears to be about 30;. :)

When I watched the cartoon, I always used to pretend that the Dungeon Master character was Yoda's brother. :D:D:D

Re: icon sizing
 

Ha ha... That show annoyed me in various ways, actually (I didn't watch it that many times, though) - such as how the boy with the magic kept failing (hmm - is he the human version of Zummi Gummi?). The little unicorn was annoying, too :D (However, as a wee lad I seem to remember being fairly freaked out about the idea of going on a roller coaster and suddenly being in scary-land and not being able to go back...)

Who was the DM in the show? Or, did the DM have a role? Did he appear (could you see him)? I don't remember...

(Incidentally, this show seems to be related to Gary Gygax's getting kicked out of TSR...)

Re: icon sizing
 

I'm old enough to watch this show in first run, but I was young enough to be excused for liking what I now think is a pretty awful cartoon. Incidentally, I also developed a dislike for roller coasters... :D

The DM was a character in the show and appeared at the beginning of the episode to give the kids some cryptic message, then often appeared at the end of the show to deliver the moral to the audience, though the kids never saw him at the end of the show.

I was bothered by three of the characters, even as a kid (though, I though the other three were pretty cool). In order of least annoying to most annoying, the little barbarian, the cowardly cavalier and the bumbling mage. Grrr. They were such cliches, even then, it really botered me that they were applying those cliches to D&D.

I had forgotten all about the unicorn. It annoyed me, too. In general, I've always been annoyed by the tacked-on characters that are with the group only for a cutesy or comedic purpose. Snarf from Thundercats, and Orko from He-Man and the Masters of the Universe come to mind as other examples. Oh yeah, and the worst of them all - Scrappy Doo.

I've attached a pic of the Dungeon Master. (Click to see full-sized.) He was about two or three feet tall.

Re: icon sizing
 

Whoa - that IS Yoda's brother! (Good thing he didn't unleash the Jedi on Tiamat...) Of course he was actually a sadistic arse, seeing that as the DM, he could easily have sent the kids home at any time, caused a boulder to fall on Tiamat, or whatever. :D

Doh... I think I am starting to recall an annoying cowardly cavalier (don't remember the little barbarian much, though).

But noone is more annoying than that little %$#& Scrappy Doo. Maybe we need a Scrappy Doo icon, just so we can beat him up some... Arrrrgh.

Other Lesser-known "Doos":

Skimpy Doo
Scoopie Doo
Soupie Doo
Sally Doo
Shoobee Doo
S. B. Doo

Re: icon sizing
 

That's not a bad idea...maybe do a little Scooby Doo set...

I've thought about doing some other cartoon characters as icons in the past- the shading would be very easy. :) For a while, I was even working on a Simpsons mod. D'oh!

Other cartoon mods I've started at one point or another:
Transformers (I know, y'already knew that one.)
Power Puff Girls (Who wouldn't want to fight Mojo Jojo?)
Pokemon/Pocket Monsters
G.I. Joe (the original cartoon series)
Smurfs (don't ask)
Super Friends

:)

Re: icon sizing
 

WOW! You DID try almost everything there is to try in DC, I thinK!

Cartoons do seem to be easier to do (shade) than more realistic art...

So, some other silly mods we could do...

1. The Scooby gang get revenge on Scrappy Doo for ruining their show (later, Johnny Bravo makes an appearance to make a pass at Daphne).

2. The Autobots and Decepticons join forces to destroy their REAL nemesis - the Gobots (who totally sucked :D )

3. The Pocket Monsters get revenge on their trainers and put THEM in the pokeballs - ha! That'll show 'em!

Re: icon sizing
 

:D:D:D

Or Destro and the Baroness decide to quit the arms dealer/terrorist business and settle down in New York city where they buy a really old house that is haunted by a hot-dog-eating poltergeist named, Slimer.

Re: icon sizing
 

Wow, that was a particular bizarre one! :D

Re: icon sizing
 

Not that bizarre- just combining two of the bad guys from G.I. Joe and the comic relief ghost from The Real Ghostbusters. :)

I watched a lot of t.v. when I was a kid. Not now, though, no t.v. except for the occasional show on PBS (Public Broadcasting).

Re: icon sizing
 

I never watched a LOT of TV, but I watched enough - lots of oldies and such (Transformers, Jem (I have little sisters :D ), Josie and the Pussycats IN SPACE!, etc.)...

I watch almost no TV now (especially since I live in Japan, the land of zero creativity and lots of imitators).

Re: icon sizing
 

I feel that way about American broadcast television. I think there is some interesting stuff happening on cable, but no way am I going to pay $40/month just to watch what I can wait a few months for to check out from the library for free if I like (DVDs of shows, etc.). :) Though, it would be kind of cool to get the discovery channels and maybe the history channels...I should just check if they release their shows on DVD. :D

Re: icon sizing
 

When last I had US TV (cable), I spent 95% of my time watching either Animal Planet or Cartoon Network :D (Discovery Channel is nice, but too much of its time is spent on stupid shows like about the father and son with a bike shop, etc... animals is where it's at. ;) )