Just a reminder that whether or not we support this coming war against Iraq, we shouldn't take it out on the men and women who are just doing what their countries asked them to.

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A division our troops should not have to face
March 20 2003

Australian military personnel, writes Miranda Devine, have a battle on their hands without a war of words, too.

The Greens leader, Bob Brown, was on radio yesterday ramping up his anti-war rhetoric, the day after cabinet committed Australian troops to the Gulf, proclaiming "the Prime Minister has sent 2000 people off to face death in the sands of Iraq".

A short time later, the father of a soldier rang 2UE host John Laws, in tears: "These kids are going over to defend their country and do their best. They need support ... They don't want people protesting here against what they're doing. All the protests in the world aren't going to stop this war now." And that is the point.

Anti-war protests made some sense before our troops were committed, so those opposed to Australian involvement in Iraq could send a message to Canberra. But now they just appear to be the futile gesture of sore losers who don't care who they hurt.

Protesters should understand they have lost the argument. Whatever your position on the war, the only outcome of continuing activism is to create more discord and division at a time when troops need to know they are supported at home.

And for some Vietnam veterans, like former 7RAR grunt Tony Blake, 54, of Bowral, community division over war in Iraq is bringing back painful memories.

"It's happening again," he said yesterday. "We're looking around at what these clowns [anti-war activists] are doing and there's a huge feeling of deja vu. Haven't they learnt anything from Vietnam?" He says fellow veterans are even concerned Anzac Day marches will be targeted.

Some of that disquiet spilt over at a meeting yesterday of the local sub-branch at the Mittagong RSL Club. The Alexander Room "erupted" angrily, said Blake, when one serving soldier told how defence personnel at the Richmond RAAF base were under orders to change into civilian clothes to go into town. The reason, claimed the 41-year-old Timor veteran, was that soldiers and airmen had been "abused and spat on". The sub-branch immediately drafted a letter to the RSL executive condemning the order as a "disgrace".

"The main feeling is anger," the Timor vet said later on the phone, "because we're proud to wear our uniforms in public."

He said the Routine Order, or RO, has been in place for about a month and asked that his name not be published. A Defence spokesman yesterday refused to confirm any order, saying it was a "security" matter. A spokeswoman for the Defence Minister, Robert Hill, confirmed a "minor incident" some weeks ago but said "generally" the public had been supportive of the troops.

Last month there were reports defence personnel in Townsville had been abused and called warmongers, and there have been rumours of similar incidents in Nowra.

Blake, who is on a permanent incapacity pension due to post-traumatic stress, remembered this week the pretty young teacher who gave him a lift when he was hitchhiking in Wollongong in 1971. He was 22 and had been back from Vietnam two months."You're a baby-killer," she told him.

"I was totally shocked, just overwhelmed," he said yesterday. "Until this week I hadn't thought of that for 10 years or more." He remembers how young soldiers returning from the horrors of Vietnam were spat on, screamed at, shunned, had paint and blood thrown on them. They were sent home at midnight to empty airports that had been locked to keep out protesters.

So he and his fellow veterans want to do whatever they can to ensure the same doesn't happen to Australian troops in the Persian Gulf. "We're mentioning this now by way of nipping it in the bud before it gets out of hand," he said. "I just hope that today's protesters are more intelligent than the ones in the Vietnam era."

But anti-war rhetoric, including from politicians, is not helping, and prompted the Prime Minister, John Howard, to say on Tuesday: "I say to people who disagree - have your beef with me, do not have your beef with the men and women of the Australian Defence Force. They are brave, courageous, young Australians who will need our support, our prayers, our encouragement and our thoughts."

The histrionics of the Opposition Leader, Simon Crean, the same day were ill-judged: "This is a black day for Australia, it's a black day for Australia and it's a black day for international co-operation." Not only has Crean become the first Opposition leader to oppose a conflict in which Australian troops are fighting, he even tried to politicise the troops themselves.

In January, at a farewell to sailors on HMAS Kanimbla, he said: "I don't believe that you should be going." Crean has stated he supports Australian troops, but it is a difficult distinction to make. No wonder his standing in opinion polls is so low, beaten by Howard's popularity which remains at pre-Bali levels despite the fact he has committed the nation to an unpopular war.

In fact, support for the decision to commit troops may not be as shaky as many believe. Laws said he believed there was a "silent majority who support the Prime Minister". He points to a phone poll he ran asking: "Is John Howard right to commit Australian troops to a war on Iraq?" and found 9406 (87.13 per cent) of callers voted "yes", while 1389 (12.87 per cent) voted "no". While phone polls are self-selecting and notoriously inaccurate, Laws feels the results show strong community sentiment the likes of which he has never seen in 50 years on radio.

In the end, no one hates war more than a soldier, as Blake said yesterday. "The protesters have to understand that there are no people more anti-war than the people who've actually fought war."

But there are still Sydneysiders who are against the war but have found a way to support the troops while maintaining their integrity. One letter writer to the Herald yesterday said her protest would be to lay flowers at the Cenotaph in Martin Place as a "reminder of the consequences of battles and the effects on those left behind".

It is a sentiment worth remembering, no matter what side of the fence you are on, as our soldiers do their duty in our name.

Source: www.smh.com.au

[img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

All men and women who put their lives at risk to protect our respective nations deserve the highest respect.

<font color=skyblue>I agree. I honor them all, and shun those that would blame the soldiers for what is to come. </font>

Absofrigginlutely!

It's not a soldier's job to question orders or dictate policy, it's just their job to obey orders. Villifying the boys and girls in khaki(or whatever color your military wears) just isn't right, no matter your 'motivation'.

Fair enough.
If only wars were fought with rubber bullets, tranquilizers and chewing gum bombs instead... :(

[ 03-19-2003, 09:29 AM: Message edited by: Grojlach ]

If you don't mind I will respect and honor Iraqi soldiers as well because they are just doing what their country asked them to.

I am with you Memsie - 100 percent [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

I agree... But I suppose Memnoch meant that as well. The Iraqi soldiers are for the largest part as unwilling as the "Western" soldiers.

Though I definitely don't agree with the message in the article (that we shouldn't protest the war just because it's inevitable - "sore losers?" yeah right :rolleyes: ), I'll keep it in mind.

Dont mind at all Masklinn.

You're right. For the most part, most of the Iraqi soldiers are just doing what their leader asks them to do. Hopefully they will have sense enough to lay down their arms and surrender like they did in the last Gulf War. If they dont have that sense, then I'll mourn them too.

PS: It's probably good that you put in the words 'as well' in your post, or I imagine my response would have been a lot less polite. :D

You still believe that France is supporting Saddam or what ? :(

I will pray for both sides.
Cause they're all men (and women) who think what they're doing is the right thing and will kill each other for that.

I pray for the less casualties possible. Noone deserve that.

Amen, Masklinn, Amen.

Actually Masklinn, I've *NEVER* believed that France was supporting Saddam, except in the sense that their blocking of the US coalition's efforts aids him by giving him more time. But no, I have never believed that France was directly aiding Saddam.

What I meant was, if you hadn't added the words 'as well', I would probably assumed you meant that you were *just* going to pray for the Iraqi soldiers, and I imagine that I would have been offended by that, since the implication would have been, that you weren't concerned about the British, US, and other troops involved. I was actually trying to make a bit of a joke, but it seems it fell flat. You have my most sincere apologies my friend.

I also am hoping for the least amount of casualties. If it were up to me, noone would have to die...well, ok, lets be honest, I wish a FEW, SELECT people would die...but, since the world isn't perfect, and I know that it's(very shortly) going to come down to shooting, I join you in hoping for the fewest casualties possible.

I 100% support our soldiers, and I pray for ALL who will be in the line of fire on both sides of the line.

However, protest is the most effective means of communicating public opinion to our elected officials. IMO, democratic governments NEED to SEE what the people are thinking. Our troops should be getting overwhelming support from all, but that should not automatically translate into support for government policy and actions. If a person feels strongly enough against the war he should feel free to protest, and I would hope that the skin of our military is thick enough not to take it as a personal insult that he's exercising his right to do it.

Sorry Nacht. I was just a bit angry cause for me this "as well" was normal. I was shocked that you had to actually point at it maybe just because of my position about this war.
I am the one who owe you apologies.
Here they are : -->apologies<-- :D

(And you didn't have to explain me all that, I'm clever enough to know why you'd be offended if I forgot this 'as well') ;)

I don't support the war, but support for the troops goes without saying. Just as in this forum, their thoughts and beliefs on the war are as useless as ours when you get right down to it. They do what they are ordered to do.

I sincerely hope that this war ends quickly with a minimum loss of life on both sides. Unfortunately the decision makers are very rarely the ones in danger.

Just a general comment - people probably aren't going to be in much of a joking mood right now, especially if the joke is somewhat ambiguous. On the other hand jokes provide levity and ease the tension. I won't tell people to stop joking (because that would be silly :D ) but to a) think more carefully about how any jokes might be perceived; and b) before flying off the handle at what might be a joke, to clarify it by email or PM with that person. Amazing how that can smooth down any misunderstandings. ;)

[quote]Originally posted by Nachtrafe:

Quote:

Originally posted by Ronn_Bman: It's not a soldier's job to question orders or dictate policy, it's just their job to obey orders. Villifying the boys and girls in khaki(or whatever color your military wears) just isn't right, no matter your 'motivation'.

So what about the Nurnberg trials ofter WW2? "We were only obeying orders" didn't wash then did it?.

Interesting that the US is the only major nation not to sign up to the international war crimes tribunal isn't it?.

Every man, whether a soldier or not has a duty to listen to his concience and decide if something is good or evil.

I pray for both sides too, but I know the invading forces will take great care in attacking military targets. They have the technology to minimize civilian casualties and I have the faith in the troops to do what is right. My heart truly goes out to those that are caught in the crossfire. I hope that the Americans can continue to help out Iraq by helping to rebuild what they intend to destroy or otherwise we'd have another dictator take over and have to deal with the same effects in the future.
War is a very difficult thing to talk about and my hat goes off to this group that can talk about it in a civilized manner.

Let´s just hope this war will be short and that there will be a minimum of casaulties on both sides.

Each individual soldier could, I suppose, refuse to go to war but it´s still not they who decide if there´s gonna be a war or not.

I would have liked that this war never came to be, or at least not yet, but as I mention before let´s hope it finishes quickly and that the recontruction of Iraq and into a democracy goes well.

No worries my friend. [img]smile.gif[/img] I get angry too and sometimes need to either explain or apologize. You should have seen me post 9-11. :ugh:

Fortunately, Cloudy is a good influence on me. She usually tells me, at night when I get home from work, if I've been unnecessarily harsh, and we will talk about it. And, if I really feel that I have been, I try to make amends. [img]smile.gif[/img]

AFA your position on the war, I respect it 100%! You are very vocal and eloquent about your stance, you aren't afraid to stand up and take credit for your opinion, and I respect that too. [img]smile.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

Yep. I realized that when I read Masklinn's response. That's why I apologized and tried to explain. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Back to the original topic - of course, the soldiers, from both sides, must be respected, no less nor more than all the other people that makes our society work, the teachers who teach our kids, the policemen who keep our life safe, the grocery people who sell us food, ... ;)

Agreed 100% (PMed you BTW [img]smile.gif[/img] )

[ 03-22-2003, 10:22 AM: Message edited by: Melusine ]

I support the troops on both sides of this conflict so much, that I call for an end to it. What greater support could you give besides standing up and being counted among the many calling to get them ALL out of harms way?

Therefore, by the aforementioned logic, saying that demonstarting on the pro-peace side is unsupportive of the troops and unconcerned about their welfare is a farce.

I'll agree, but only with the fact that everyone deserves respect.

Those who risk their lives do deserve a bit more of our respect. Of course, that isn't just soldiers. Firemen and police officers immediately spring to mind. What everyone contributes to society is certainly important, but not everyone has to put their life on the line to do their job. My job is important, but I won't be killed answering a phone or talking on the radio. ;)

[ 03-22-2003, 01:20 PM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

Spot on.

Totally agree.

Well, I've never said people shouldn't protest, and I've never said protestors were unpatriotic or that they hated or blamed the soldiers for the war. I've never said it because, for the overwhelming majority, I don't believe any of it to be true. Protestors are standing up for what they believe in, and that's what Democracy is all about.

The argument for protesting as a way of supporting the soldiers (using Chewbacca's logical argument) may make sense to us here, but I just don't think if I was in the desert facing possible death, I would find the thought of protestors at home uplifting. I don't think I would see them as supporting me; I'd see them as opposing a political decision and recognize it as their right, but the two aren't the same. :(

[ 03-23-2003, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

Ronn, I'll reply to both your posts in here, because they are related.

There are a lot more civilians that you mentioned who put their life on the line every day. I would like to express utmost respect to all the humanitarian people, doctors, nurses, engineers and teachers, who risk their live in going to dangerous countries to make people's lives better all over the world.

And I would also like to express my deepest respect to all the Iraqi civilians, men and women who are right now trying to survive and protect their children from the hell happening on their heads.

I have been told many stories from my parents and grandparents about WWII. I am astonished at the level of heroism many many ordinary people showed every day during five bloody long years, in simply managing to hang on through the restrictions and the uncertainties and the ever-ending fear for their families and their children. And I think about all the simple families who hid and protected Jewish families and children - at the risk for their lives that they assumed simply because they felt they had to do it. These people, they never got glory and rewards and medals - and they didn't ask for them, it was simply something they had to do - and they were true heroes. When I hear spew about the French people having been cowards during WWII, I don't think first of the soldiers, I think first of all these simple heroes and I weep for them. And I weep all the same for all these Iraqi men and women and children who are now put through the same ordeal on top of all the damage brought them by Saddam and by the embargo.

I don't like the idea of protesting the war showing a lack of respect for the soldiers fighting it. On the contrary, I believe many of the people protesting the war do it from respect for the civilian Iraqi people enduring it.

Sure they do, but that isn't protesting for soldiers, which has been suggested. Again, I believe people have the right to protest, but this thread was about supporting the soldiers, and I don't believe the soldiers in the field view protests in the street as support for them.

[ 03-23-2003, 05:34 PM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

Of course. :D

As I said, policemen and firemen immediately came to mind, but my point was that those who voluntarily risk their lives to serve and/or protect others deserve more respect from those of us who benefit from their sacrifice. Soldiers are included in the list. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Of course they risk their lives.
But they also take some. On orders.
This is something I find hard to respect. No matter what side, no matter the reasons.

As long as there will be people willing to do that job, you will have wars and dictators.

But I'm too much of a hippie maybe.

Police officers occasionally take lives in order to protect their public. ;)

American soldiers don't spend their entire careers killing, and they aren't used to enforce the government's will on the civilian population. I'd say they spend the overwhelming majority of their careers helping the innocent. In America those troops help during natural disasters, and those troops have rendered aid around the world.

What about your own soldiers? Just because they aren't fighting in this conflict doesn't mean that they don't have the same job.

No matter what reason is a bit broad. If you can't respect the soldier, maybe you really are too much of a hippie.

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Well put, as always, Ronn.

I was talking about all soldiers, french ones included.

I was being a bit utopian too. I know that the world we are currently living in needs soldiers. I wish it didn't.

Of course I respect those people as much as anyone else, because they're human beings before all. And I wish they all will be able to go back home safe.

But I won't respect them more for the reason that they're soldiers and currently doing a war somewhere. As you may have noticed, I'm not a big fan of these kind stuff.

Wise words Masklinn, I'd personally respect them more for refusing to go and fight. I don't want to be all wishy-washy but the people who deserve our respect more are people like charity and volunteer workers.
Sure we should respect the police etc for the job they do too, but others should be equally valued.

I support the troops as well. I don't agree with the war as it is illegal but now that the damage is done (aggression on a sovereign nation in a first strike scenario, more hatred towards the west, more terrorist created by the declaration of war) I don't want them to come home until the iraqi dictator has been removed. If evil has been done might has well destroy a greater evil in the process.

Who is a big fan of war? Me, because I support this action in Iraq? It's just not true. You agree there is a time and need for soldiers. You and I jsut disagree on whether or not now is that time. ;)

The fact remains they risk their lives to protect and defend. You may not think they deserve anymore respect than someone who bags groceries, but I do. We don't live in a Utopian society, so someone has to risk their life, and I think those who do are deserving of special recognition.

But who allows charity and volunteer workers to do their jobs? Who makes it possible? I wonder how many charity and volunteer organization the Iraqi government allows to aid the Kurds or the Shiites? Oh wait, I forgot they don't have any money to fund charities because they are buying weapons and building palaces. ;)

What about the fireman who goes into a burning home to pull out a child or a mother or a father or brother or a sister? He's helping someone long before the charities arrive to help the families who've lost their homes to fire. The fireman risks his own life to help others, and while charity workers devote themselves to helping others by giving time and money, they aren't risking their lives.

It doesn't mean that what they do isn't important, but just as they deserve a higher level of respect that someone who doesn't give a rip about helping people in need, so do those who risk their lives deserve more respect than all others. They know their job could cost their own life, but they do it anyway. It's different even if you can't see it.

BTW Marky, what was your user name the last time you were here? ;)

[ 03-24-2003, 01:31 PM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

OK, let's see if I understand it right.

Any one of the Iraqi soldiers deserve more respect than Mother Teresa - she gave her life to others, but apparently it is not the point.

Any soldier deserves more respect than Jenner and Pasteur and all the doctors and scientists whose work save billions of lives - but again that's not the point, they were just saving lives, not "freedom".

Any Nazi officer deserved more respect than the French men and women who struggled to protect Jewish children - but they were not officially fighting, were they ?

Weirdly, some soldiers seem more equal than others - since posts like "the French not wanting war because they are afraid to lose because they haven't won a war since 1812" don't seem to bother many people.

Allright.