Memnoch, I respected you until your last post in the Part I thread regarding this issue. I don't like being called out as not acting like an adult. I responded to quite inflamatory remarks regarding my threads with calmness and candor, yet you called me out as not being "mature." I want to point out that you are wrong, first of all. I tried my best to support my postion without being too harsh. I tried to make arguments in the most salient fashion. Lumping me in with the immatue crowd is wrong, at best, and silly at worst.

Memnoch will respond to a PM dude - I suggest that you use that forum for the advancement of your cause. If you feel the need to clear the air then use the right approach. I predict this thread will descend at a similar rate and be closed before long, so I suggest you try the alternate method.

(PS - I didn't read the other thread, and I am not judging anyone - just pointing to a more appropriate means).

Timber, starting an open debate on a closed thread was unwise. The last one was locked for a good reason. As I said in the last one, I'm not interested in listening to your - or anyone else's - justifications, apportioning of blame/fault, excuses, fingerpointing, etc. in this particular case. The bottom line is we had another thread closed because of a bunch of people acting like pork chops - you, Chewy and Cerek in that particular thread. Whether or not you were less or more to blame, I don't care - you contributed to the deterioration as far as I am concerned. Sadly, in your indignation at being named, you appear to have missed the entire point of my post - all of you are COLLECTIVELY contributing to the deterioration in standards of this forum with your behaviour, and I've had enough of the fingerpointing and the lack of acceptance of shared responsibility for this.

And it hasn't been just that thread - watching that one go downhill was an inevitable conclusion to the exercising of a set of behaviours from everyone here who is a regular in this particular forum. YOUR inflammatory titled terrorist post STARTED all this, so don't start taking the moral high ground about responding calmly to provocative posts from others. We let you go on it (mainly because it wasn't noticed until it was well underway, and also because you didn't actually name anyone) but for you to go on and admit that was your entire purpose - to use an inflammatory title to provoke a whole bunch of flames - is unacceptable. I agree with you that people need to have thicker skins but that doesn't give us the excuse to piss people off for the express purpose of "calling them out" or eliciting an emotional response, just because you feel it's been done to you by Skunk or anyone else.

For the record, I (as well as Z or the rest of the mod team) don't believe anyone in this CE forum currently has the maturity to manage a fiery debate and resolve differences without external assistance, and without carrying the grudges into subsequent/future posts. When I see provocative posts like your <a href="http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=27&t=001141&p=4#000 096" target="_blank">last post in your terrorism thread
</a>...

...how can you expect me to see you as being a mature individual? If you don't want to be called out as not acting like an adult, then act like one and I won't call you out. You haven't given me cause in your recent behaviour to do otherwise. The locked thread, as well as the terrorism thread you started, are examples of why we can never ever have a forum where people moderate themselves and resolve differences between themselves. You guys just don't have the maturity to do that at this point - you push things until you are physically told to stop. The way we're going I doubt we ever will.

I've got a suggestion for you, Timber. Rather than expressing indignation and offence at my comments, re-read all your posts here in the last few months, with the eyes of a neutral outsider (or maybe with the eyes of someone who's never been to IW), and try and see if you can find the reason why I lumped you with the "immature crowd" that you consider yourself above. Do this HONESTLY, with no bias, with the eyes of a newcomer. Then when you've done this you are welcome to PM me with your thoughts, and I will respond. Until you do that I'm not prepared to debate this with you (don't take my leaving the thread open as an invitation to do that).

[ 06-23-2004, 11:53 AM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

<font color=deepskyblue>I did accept shared responsibility for the deteriotion of this forum in the previous thread. I admitted that I was just as guilty as anybody else for that state of affairs here - and I was ashamed I had allowed myself to reach such a level in comparison to how "calm" I use to be when I first joined IW.

It was difficult to admit that but I felt I had to be honost with myself and the other members. The thing that really hurts me is that I had publicly stated I was going to be making a conscious effort to return to my former, CALMER self and try not to get so upset at posts here anymore. An example of that renewed effort occurred yesterday when a post that would have angered me in the past led to no hurt feelings by me or the other poster, but we both apologized to the other anyway just to make sure there were no hard feeling. In the previous thread, <font color=orange>Chewbacca</font> and I weren't really even arguing. He pointed out a position he has stated often on something he found offensive, and I pointed out that certain comments he had made in the past could also be considered offensive - even though I knew they weren't meant to be. Still, I was going to make a conciliatory post to him before emotions DID get heated - but <font color=cyan>Larry</font> closed the thread before I had a chance to do that.

I just read your final comments after his closing of the thread today. That post, coupled with this one, is a spit in the face to me after I have acknowledged I was guilty of contributing to the "deteriotion of this forum" and made a public commitment to change. I've had some ugly things said to me by members during my 2 years at IW, but this is the deepest I've actually been hurt by anything said here.</font>

<font face="COMIC Sans MS" size="3" color="#7c9bc4">
So were you Goaded into deteriorating this forum Cerek? The King Goader wants to know ;) Hehhe....come on guys lets all lighten up.</font>

<font color=deepskyblue>LOLOL!!! Nope, I won't blame my actions on anybody but myself, <font color=lime>MagiK</font>. I reacted to some posts in a manner I shouldn't have and chose not to let some issues slide when maybe I should have, but I'm trying to make a fresh start.

<font color=red>Memnoch's</font> words stung and I felt that part of what was said was unfair, but I'm over it and ready to move on.</font>

<font color=deepskyblue>LOLOL!!! Nope, I won't blame my actions on anybody but myself, <font color=lime>MagiK</font>. I reacted to some posts in a manner I shouldn't have and chose not to let some issues slide when maybe I should have, but I'm trying to make a fresh start.

<font color=red>Memnoch's</font> words stung and I felt that part of what was said was unfair, but I'm over it and ready to move on.</font> </font>[/QUOTE]There you go Brother [img]smile.gif[/img]

Credit to whom credit is do. [img]smile.gif[/img]

<font color=deepskyblue>LOLOL!!! Nope, I won't blame my actions on anybody but myself, <font color=lime>MagiK</font>. I reacted to some posts in a manner I shouldn't have and chose not to let some issues slide when maybe I should have, but I'm trying to make a fresh start.

<font color=red>Memnoch's</font> words stung and I felt that part of what was said was unfair, but I'm over it and ready to move on.</font> </font>[/QUOTE]G'day Cerek. I expected some offence to be taken to my comments as I'm sure they sounded harsh, but they needed to be said, unfortunately. People can take my comments positively or negatively. We've all known each other for a little while now, and you know that I'm one of the most laid-back blokes around. I don't like giving people a serve just for the sake of it, but you all really did need what we in OZ call a "rocket up your bums", because some of the behaviour in here - the flamebaiting, the bitching, the animosity, the stubborness, all of it was getting to silly proportions. I hope the words I said were not simply taken offence at, but instead were taken in the spirit in which I said them.

For the record, I did see your post earlier, and I don't doubt your sincerity, but right now all they are are words, Cerek. Actions speak louder than words to me - and it takes time for a behavioural change to be seen by others. But I'm pleased you did come to that realisation - now I expect you to do as you say. If you've already started on that path then what I've said should only be a confirmation of what you've already come up with on your own, and you're a step ahead of the others. Now I expect you to do as you say, and possibly set an example to the rest of the guys in taking ownership and taking responsibility for the culture in here. Good luck with it mate. Cheers. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 06-24-2004, 05:36 AM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

<font color = lightgreen>As an infrequent and completely impartial poster (I approach a topic from the point of view that I am correct and can't figure out why others don't agree [img]graemlins/petard.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img] ), I will state where I see this forum heading.
This particular forum is the one I view first, because I really like a juicy discussion of the current goings-on in the world. True, I don't reply to all threads because not all threads catch my interest; likewise, I have started several threads about topics in which I am interested but those quickly fall into obscurity. *shrug* Oh, well.
I have seen people get really petty, snotty, or whatever you wish to call it in some threads. However, I have seen those same people turn around and really contribute something constructive in other threads. Sometimes I agree with them, sometimes I don't. I ignore the name calling and the rougher language (which has never yet been directed at me personally) because one insult disarms anything else someone might have said, no matter how accurate or insightful. Occasionally, I have patted someone on the head (which I'm sure is taken as inflammatory), but that is about as far as I'll go. When I receive an insult I ignore it as if it never happened because I am in control of my own actions and reactions.

Enough about me. [img]graemlins/petard.gif[/img]

This thread represents the First Amendment right in its probably its most pure form, because with only a few restrictions--none of which are as restrictive as real-world First Amendment limits--we may speak our minds on any topic without fear of reprisal. If more people would frequent a forum such as this one then more people would become more informed, which benefits everyone.
Apparently, we've had a hiccup here lately. So what? That happenes every now and then. It's like being at a family gathering--there are relatives you enjoy seeing and relative you'd rather not see, but in the end you're all still family, like it or not.
The overall maturity level here is high enough to weather this particular thunderstorm. Actions always speak more loudly than words (even though words and actions are equivalent here, but that is a philosophical discussion for another day), thus how one weathers the storm bespeaks one's character. I see a lot of people here with a lot of character, even the ones with whom I normally disagree.

In short, this forum isn't "coming to" anything, just having a normal spat like in any relationship. By the way, you're sleeping on the couch. [img]tongue.gif[/img]

Azred pats everyone on thier heads. [img]graemlins/petard.gif[/img] </font>

<font face="COMIC Sans MS" size="3" color="#7c9bc4">
ROTFL Well said Sir Azred! :D
</font>

No!! Timber's suspension won't allow him to shed his mighty light upon the final match of Euro 2004!!

Seriously though, I hope you don't forget to lift his suspension; I've seen a couple of suspensions kept active even after the expiring date. Don't know if that was intentional or not... [img]graemlins/1ponder.gif[/img]

Thanks for giving us some perspective, Azred. If more people had your approach this entire forum would run more smoothly. Hope your advice is heeded. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Don't worry about us Link..

<font color = lightgreen>Thank you, MagiK and Memnoch. Flatterers. [img]graemlins/petard.gif[/img] [img]graemlins/beigesmilewinkgrin.gif[/img] [img]tongue.gif[/img] </font>

I have no problem taking responsibilty for my actions. Cerek and I did cross the line in the other thread in the sense that we were specifically discussing religion- a banned topic here on IW. It must be noted that we discussed in a respectable manner and finished our discussion via PM with mutal respect, clarity, and general agreeance to disagree.

It should also be noted, that I did agree to to disagree on various points in the locked thread. I did get a little heated in reply to Cloudy, and in retrospect this was genuinely unconscious.

I know explainations dont matter and do not justify behavior, but I will do so anyway.

I have been accused on this forum, by various posters, in public and in private, both directly and indirectly that I am anti-Christian.

I know Cloudy didnt mean to imply this, but I read an accusation where there really was none. She was simply pointing out how my words could be taken that way and start a ruckus. But I responded like I did, that is defensively, because I thought, in error, that some of the accusations I have heard from other posters (some recently) were being repeated.

Well I was wrong and off-base to get worked up over it

Now Memnoch is quite right, just because someone says something about me, that doesnt make it true and in my heart of hearts I know this accusation is not true. As someone who actively works in a volunteer capacity to proliferate social tolerance, I took these accusations as an attempt at character assassination and more personal than your average insult.

But now I am thinking those accusation (demonstratively false that they are) are actually irrelevant and that I am best served ignoring them.

Truth being, if I simply follow forum rules and dont get tempted into religious discussion, than none of my opinions can be miscontrued this way and I spare fellow posters from making that tragic error of judgment.


Peace and chocolate kisses,

Scott

[ 06-25-2004, 01:45 AM: Message edited by: Chewbacca ]

Azred....ROTFL! Where were you with those pats on the head last week, dear?! :D Btw...nice post, very nice!

And just cuz I'm feeling like it.... Group Hug, anyone? *HUGS EVERYONE WHO WANTS ONE* [img]smile.gif[/img] Or at least a group handshake? Vulcan live long and prosper sign? *giggle* :D

http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/cere...er.4561467.jpg
<font face="COMIC Sans MS" size="2" color="orange">ALL HAIL KING GOADER!!!</font>

....()()....()()
.....()()..()()
......()()()()
..()..(......)
...()_(......)
....(........).
.....(.......)

LIVE LONG AND PROSPER!!!

[img]graemlins/biglaugh.gif[/img] HAHAHAHAHAHA.....now that was totally unexpected...and very funny! *giggle*

good, i was afraid no one would understand what my vulcan hand sign was... it was a bugger, too, because spaces dont get included so i had to redo it with periods instead.

<font face="COMIC Sans MS" size="3" color="#7c9bc4">
Very good guys! [img]smile.gif[/img] </font>

I heard about Timber's suspension, so I had to come see why myself, and heh, wow. Again, I am reminded why I do not come to this part of IW [img]tongue.gif[/img]

I don't see the point in all the flame baiting though, but don't get me wrong, if it came down to it, I myself would be aiming the crosshairs too. It starts out as people expressing their opinions until it comes to the point of "No, you're wrong, I'm right" sort of thing, then it gets hectic. As for what Timber said, stressed as it is, the guy is just patriotic even if he is a bit too much. But trust me on one thing, just stay calm when someone throws a few words your way, you'll look back and laugh at what was said, I know I have :D

Take care you worked up people you.

again i remind others to read the "dont get pissed off thread" by the moderators. or count to fifty before you reread the other person's post and THEN write back/

G'day Gangrell. I think everyone here means well, but unfortunately we have a bunch of people who can be more stubborn than wise at times. Everyone's got their particular opinion/slant on things, and we all stand up for what we believe in, but to be still arguing each other's point of view when neither is willing to give ground and have the debate going around in circles as peoples' tempers get ever shorter is just silly and a waste of everyone's time in my book. Once this line of discussion is entered into it'll only ever be a matter of time before someone snaps and loses their rag. At the end of the day these are just opinions on a forum we're exchanging, it's not like there are critical outputs/decisions that will arise from who wins/loses/whatever. We're not Secretaries of State or Foreign Ministers making policy, so let's not take ourselves too seriously when we're debating each other here. ;)

Don't get me wrong, I find debate and conflict to be healthy and enlightening and there have been some great debates on this forum - as long as they don't get to the point where people start to get REALLY pissed off, because then it becomes worthless.

In my view people should put in their two bob which they believe in, stick up for their opinion but also have the wisdom to leave it when it becomes clear that it's going nowhere. But lately we haven't had that here. It's almost like people try and push it till they're told to stop, or threatened to stop, or are booted. Then it's always someone else's fault. I would just love for people to chill out a bit and realise that this forum is not the be-all and end-all of everything.

Anyway, I've said more than enough on this, and will leave it now. My nice soft bed awaits - unfortunately I'll probably only get 4 hours on it before my alarm clock goes - don't you hate Mondays, eh. [img]graemlins/awcrap.gif[/img]

[ 06-27-2004, 02:10 PM: Message edited by: Memnoch ]

I'll probably only get 4 hours on it before my alarm clock goes - don't you hate Mondays, eh.

your alarm clock is canadian?

No, it was 4 am when I hit the sack and my alarm close went off 4 hours later. ;)

I don't sleep much myself. Go to bed at 4AM, wake up at six, skip a night, do two hours again, nap intermittently in the day, run on wiry caffeine. On that setup I can run fully as efficiently as anyone else my age on 1/6 as much sleep.

Too much philosophy for a forum, even if it is full of flame baiters, but please let me congratulate the mods on this forum for the most locked threads in IW :D