this is kinda serious.. no offense to all, just got it from my e-mail http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

Something to reflect on...
"LET ME EXPLAIN THE problem science has with Jesus Christ."

The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks
one of his new students to stand. "You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"
"Yes, sir." "So you believe in God?" "Absolutely." "Is God good?" "Sure!
God's good." "Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?" "Yes." "Are you
good or evil?" "The Bible says I'm evil." The professor grins knowingly.
"Ahh! THE BIBLE!" He considers for a moment. Here's one for you. Let's say
there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would
you help them? Would you try?" "Yes, sir, I could." "So you're good...!" "I
wouldn't say that." "Why not say that? You would help a sick and maimed
person if you could...in fact most of us would if we could... God doesn't."
[No answer.] "He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of
cancer even though he prayed to Jesus to help him. How is this Jesus good?
Hmmm? Can you answer that one?" [No answer.] The elderly man is sympathetic.
"No, you can't, can you?" He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk
to give the student time to relax. In philosophy, you have to go easy with
the new ones. "Let's start again, young fella." "Is God good?" "Er... Yes."
"Is Satan good?" "No." "Where does Satan come from?" The student falters.
"From... God..." "That's right. God made Satan, didn't he?" The elderly man
runs his bony fingers through his thinning hair and turns to the smirking,
student audience. "I think we're going to have a lot of fun this semester,
ladies and gentlemen." He turns back to the Christian. "Tell me, son. Is
there evil in this world?" "Yes, sir." "Evil's everywhere, isn't it? Did God
make very thing?" "Yes." "Who created evil?" [No answer.] "Is there
sickness in this world? Immorality? Hatred? ugliness? All the terrible
things - do they exist in this world?" The student squirms on his feet.
"Yes." "Who created them?" [No answer.] The professor suddenly shouts at his
student. "WHO CREATED THEM? TELL ME, PLEASE!" The professor closes in for
the kill and climbs into the Christian's face. In a still small voice: "God
created all evil, didn't He, son?" [No answer.] The student tries to hold
the steady, experienced gaze and fails. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to
pace the front of the classroom like an aging
panther. The class is mesmerized. "Tell me," he continues, "How is it that
this God is good if He created all evil through all time?" The professor
swishes his arms around to encompass the wickedness of the world. "All the
hatred, the brutality, all the pain, all the torture, all the death and
ugliness and all the suffering created by this good God is all over the
world, isn't it, young man?" [No answer.] "Don't you see it all over the
place? Huh?" Pause. "Don't you?" The professor leans into the student's face
again and whispers, "Is God good?" [No answer.] "Do you believe in Jesus
Christ, son?" The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor. I
do." The old man shakes his head sadly. "Science says you have five senses
you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you?" "No, sir.
I've never seen Him." "Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?" "No,
sir. I have not." "Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt
your Jesus... in fact, do you have any sensory perception of your God
whatsoever?" [No answer.] "Answer me, please." "No, sir, I'm afraid I
haven't." "You're AFRAID... you haven't?" "No, sir." "Yet you still believe
in him?" "...yes..." "That takes FAITH!" The professor smiles sagely at the
underling. "According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable
protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that,
son? Where is your God now?" [The student doesn't answer.] "Sit down,
please." The Christian sits...Defeated.

Another Christian raises his hand. "Professor, may I address the class?" The
professor turns and smiles. "Ah, another Christian in the vanguard! Come,
come, young man. Speak some proper wisdom to the gathering." The Christian
looks around the room. "Some interesting points you are making, sir. Now
I've got a question for you. Is there such thing as heat?" "Yes," the
professor replies. "There's heat." "Is there such a thing as cold?" "Yes,
son, there's cold too."
"No, sir, there isn't." The professor's grin freezes. The room suddenly goes
very cold. The second Christian continues. "You can have lots of heat, even
more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat but
we don't
have anything called 'cold'. We hit 458 degrees below zero, which is not
heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as
cold, otherwise we would be able to go colder than 458 degrees. - You see,
sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. WE cannot
measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy.
Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it." Silence. A
pin drops somewhere in the classroom. "Is there such a thing as darkness,
professor?" "That's a dumb question, son. What is night if it isn't
darkness? What are you getting at...?" (the professor starting to be
impatient) "So you say there is such a thing as darkness?" "Yes..." "You're
wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something, it is the absence of something.
You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light but if
you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called
darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In
reality. Darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness
darker and give me a jar of it. Can you...give me a jar of darker darkness,
professor?"
Despite himself, the professor smiles at the young effrontery before him.
This will indeed be a good semester. "Would you mind telling us what your
point is, young man?" "Yes, professor. My point is, you philosophical
premise is flawed to start with and so your conclusion must be in error...."
The professor goes toxic. "Flawed...? How dare you...!" "Sir, may I explain
what I mean?" The class is all ears. "Explain... oh, explain..." The
professor makes an admirable effort to regain control. Suddenly he is
affability itself. He waves his hand to silence the class, for the student
to continue. "You are working on the premise of duality," the Christian
explains. "That for example there is life and then there's death; a good God
and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite,
something we can measure. Sir, science cannot even explain a thought. It
uses electricity and magnetism but has never see, much less fully understood
them. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact
that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of
life, merely the absence of it." The young man hold up a newspaper he takes
from the desk of a neighbor who has been reading it. "Here is one of the
most disgusting tabloids this country hosts, professor. Is there such a
thing as immorality?" "Of course there is, now look..." "Wrong again, sir.
You see, immorality is merely the absence of morality. Is there such thing
as injustice? No. Injustice is the absence of justice. Is there such a
thing as evil?" The Christian pauses. "Isn't evil the absence of good?" The
professor's face has turned an alarming color. He is so angry he is
temporarily speechless. The Christian continues. "If there is evil in the
world, professor, and we all agree there is, then God, if he exists, must be
accomplishing a work through the agency of evil. What is that work God is
accomplishing? The Bible tells us it is to see if each one of us will, of
our own free will, choose good over evil." The professor bridles. "As a
philosophical scientist, I don't vie this matter as having anything to do
with any choice; as a realist, I absolutely do not recognize the concept of
God or any other theological factor as being part of the world equation
because God is not observable." "I would have thought that the absence of
God's moral code in this world is probably one of the most observable
phenomena going," the Christian
replies.

"Newspapers make billions of dollars reporting it every week! Tell me,
professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?" "If
you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes,
of course I do." "Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"
The professor makes a sucking sound with his teeth and gives his student a
silent, stony stare. "Professor. Since no-one has ever observed the process
of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going
endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a
scientist, but a priest?" "I'll overlook your impudence in the light of our
philosophical discussion. Now, have you quite finished?" the professor
hisses. "So you don't accept God's moral code to do what is righteous?" "I
believe in what is - that's science!" "Ahh! SCIENCE!" the student's face
splits into a grin. "Sir, you right state that science is the study of
observed phenomena. Science too is a premise which is flawed..." "SCIENCE IS
FLAWED...?" The professor splutters. The class is in uproar. The Christian
remains standing until the commotion has subsided. "To continue the point
you were making earlier to the other student, may I give you an example of
what I mean?" he professor wisely keeps silent. The Christian looks around
the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has
ever seen the professor's brain?" The class breaks out in laughter. The
Christian points towards his elderly, crumbling tutor. "Is there anyone
here who has ever heard the professor's brain... felt the professor's brain,
touched or smelt the professor's brain?" No one appears to have done so. The
Christian shakes his head sadly. "It appears no-one here has had any sensory
perception of the professor's brain whatsoever. Well, according to the rules
of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science, I DECLARE that the
professor has no brain." The class is in chaos.The Christian sit... Because
that is what a chair is for.

************************************************** *******


When God created the heaven and the earth, the land and sea, animals, day
and night, man and woman, and so many other things, the Bible ended with
this same statement - And God saw that it was good (NIV). "God saw all that
He had made and it was very good." (Gen 1:31 NIV) The choice of evil was
made by man when he ate the fruit of good and evil, even when God told him
not to. I thank God that I was not made to behave like a robot. I have made
my choice - to seek forgiveness for my sins and continue to walk under the
grace of a merciful God. How about you?
God bless.


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Revived I Am to hunt this world... Banish ye evil or face my wrath...

Very good explanation Harkoliar.

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Where there are monsters and barbarians there will be Byronas fighting against them.
Leader of Keldorn's Order

I've never read the whole thing in its full length before..
Thanks for posting that Harkoliar! I hope I dont have to stand up for my faith like that if and when I take philosophy as a subject. I'd just crumble before the onslaught..http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...les/tongue.gif http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif

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No-Name Face

I've just remembered something a friend and teacher told me a long while ago..

She told me to think of a watch, with its leather strap, gears, cogs and delicate, precise pieces.
Then she told me to imagine that same watch breaking up into its components, and those components into their base materials (plastics, metals, cowhide, glass)
She told me to imagine the materials that went into the construction of the watch all in their basest forms in the natural world. Then she told me to imagine all those pieces forming and coming together into gears, cogs, straps, hands.
Then from all over the world, those pieces had to come together, in precise order, to form a perfectly precise timepiece. She asked me if it was possible that this could happen, and I said yes, I could see it happening.
Then she asked me, could I see this happening thousands of years ago, before humans learnt the craft of watchmaking, all the pieces and materials spontaneously coming together of their own accord by chance and forming a watch.
I said no.
Then she told me to think of the human body. A human body is an infintely more complex device than a watch, containing billions of cells, hundreds of different components, DNA and genetics. If a simple watch could not come together precisely, then what are the chances of a perfectly normal, healthy human being coming from the thousands of possibly paths the theory of evolution could take, and become the most intelligent, dominant species on Earth? All it takes is one chromosome, some missing strand of billions of DNA chains to make a human become mentally retarded, or a gibbering idiot, or some such.
When one looks at the odds of a human being forming totally on its own, let alone the entire natural world, the entire universe, from solar system to distant stars forming into a perfect functioning order, its impossible NOT to see the hand of a greater power, a creator at work.
Here, Science actually complements Religious Faith.
If the creation of life is something we humans are only on the brink of discovering after thousands of years, then what are the chances of it happening on its own?

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No-Name Face

bumpin for anyone who hasnt seen this...

actually wonder where 250 went, he usually likes this kinds of stuff i "think"

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Revived I Am to hunt this world... Banish ye evil or face my wrath...

That's just a bunch of philosophical rhetoric. When you write an arguement with yourself, you are sure to kick your own a$$. For what it's worth though, it is well written.

------------------
"The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his."
-General George Patton (1885-1945)
http://www.asnsoup.com/milamberanim4.gif
Member of CLAN HADB

[This message has been edited by MILAMBER (edited 10-29-2001).]

wow i'm impresed by that, i think i'll go and forward that to everyone, ty for posting it too....quite amazing acutally^^

The student is wrong!!! Evolution very easily proven! any proffesser worth a dang should of picked up on.
Otherwise fairly funny.

Hmmm... Natural Selection is easily proved. Evolution involving amoebas becoming primates or a big bang creating a perfect universe...these are in no way proven.

Harkoliar
Good post


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Crustiest of the OLD COOTS
Airline ticket to Afghanistan $800
High powered rifle with scope $1000
Hotel room with roof access $100
A clean Head shot on that sack of Horse Manure Usuma Bin Laden PRICELESS!

Harkoliar, yep brother, good post

but the professor himself is a moron, the discussion can be more interesting if the professor has more understanding of christianity. he sounds like a kid

Yeah, but you wouldn't believe how many professors actually act like that, 250, until you get out there among them.

It's why I have elected to teach at a trade school rather than in a college. Prestige aside, I think it is far better to train people in job and life skills than to argue how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. It's more rewarding to me, anyway. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

Cheers,



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http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/saz1.gif
Patience, my BUTT...I'm going to KILL something!!!

I believe you

DNA tests can prove it. They show that fossil humanoids and Homosapin-sapin(?) have a gentic drifferents of less then 1.5% or so and seeing how all humans have a gentic direffence of less then 1.5% no matter what.

and what does that mean? mr. big words?

1)I'm a smartass.
2)I can't be bothered to spell tings right.
3)That if you took a sample of homo-sapin(Human that existed before us) and tested his DNA it would only be 1.5% deriffent from ours (Homo-sapin-sapin) is today and the one before that would be slimmer to that one and so on down the fossil record.
4)that professer is really, really bad at this job. I've can spot lots of points were he could of put a hole in the 'students' theory.

[This message has been edited by Sir Real (edited 10-29-2001).]

Show me irrefutable proof that a homo sapin (whateva that is) is a human that came before us.
And tell me what percent difference there is in DNA between you and a cow while you're at it.


[This message has been edited by Prime2U (edited 10-30-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Prime2U (edited 10-30-2001).]

I'll have to see the evidence on that one (studies). How long does DNA survive in a viable form? How long before DNA degrades to the point that our tests are unreliable? What is the differance in percent of human DNA and say chimpanzee? So we are close (humans and chimps) does that mean one came from the other?
What is the percent differance of DNA inorder to quailify species as being seperate species?



------------------
Crustiest of the OLD COOTS
Airline ticket to Afghanistan $800
High powered rifle with scope $1000
Hotel room with roof access $100
A clean Head shot on that sack of Horse Manure Usuma Bin Laden PRICELESS!

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. There is no way that they have DNA from back then.


------------------
"The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his."
-General George Patton (1885-1945)
http://www.asnsoup.com/milamberanim4.gif
Member of CLAN HADB

Nice post Harkoliar!
Aside from the bickering about whatever else it was.... (religion, the intelect of the professor).... I really liked that tale http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

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http://sylents.homestead.com/files/1.gif "Watch your back"

Just as you could put a hole in a student's theory, perhaps the student could but a stop in those holes..
Just a thought. Lets not bicker about whos right or wrong, its a thread not to proove a certain viewpoint, but just to show an alternate perspective.

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No-Name Face

thanks for the nice (and off-topic remarks) hehe...
but for my own personal opinion: there is no absoloute truth of what truly happened, there is no abosoloute statement that tells you everything and anything... there is no absoloute perfection...
cheers http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...iles/smile.gif

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Revived I Am to hunt this world... Banish ye evil or face my wrath...

As far as evolution goes, who is to say it isn't the very tool god used to create the world as we know it? Just because our physical universe runs itself and has discernable paterns and cycles, doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't created. A perfect machine always runs smoothly and with little intervention.

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Master Barbsman and weilder of the razor wit!
Official royal toad! Ribbit! Ribbet I say!

The true secret to happiness is not having what you want, it's wanting what you have!

*bump* ... dang I almost missed this ..... very good http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif

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http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...les/DRUIDD.gif You can only call someone something so many times before they become that which you did not wish them to be!
Bad things happen to bad people!
Founding Father of TLFB

Well we share slimmer characterists and the fossil record and discovered bones show that they used tools, lived in comunitys and unless there was another spieces that existed on earth (Exluding Nathiendufell(boy that bad spelling)) before we were alegledy created.
Perhaps this link might shed some light for you
The diffence between me and a cow is greater then 1.5%, don't know it exacty but I not a prof'.

DNA degrades, well I have not ideal on it speed but it does happen, which of course lead to doughts about it laditive, so it not used that much. But slimmer strands from mupitle sources of pre-humans cann't all but conidince can it?
Difference is greater then 1.5% but again I don't know.

Quote from Sir Real : Well we share slimmer characterists and the fossil record and discovered bones show that they used tools, lived in comunitys and unless there was another spieces that existed on earth (Exluding Nathiendufell(boy that bad spelling)) before we were alegledy created.
Perhaps this link might shed some light for you
The diffence between me and a cow is greater then 1.5%, don't know it exacty but I not a prof'.


Ok, the genetic difference between a human and an ape is between 1 and 2%. This is a fact. Does that mean a chimpanze is a prehistoric form of man? doesn't make much sense does it? I'm not sure why you keep mentioning this 1.5%, as it really doesn't have any significance at all. We are that close genetically to many primates.

I don't remember right now how similar we are to a cow, but we are very close genetically to mammals in general. I do know that we are 90% similar to dogs, and 88-89% similar to horses. So, 10% different from dogs, 11% different from horses, 1-2% different from the apes. Knowing this, how is 1.5% (which is the same with many apes) significant in any way? I'm interested to know.

As far as your link, it sheds no light whatsoever. It says right on that page that cladistics, which is what the page is all about, is based on assumptions. Now I may believe in creation, but I am also a scientist, and assumptions are anathema in science. One cannot assume anything, as that invalidates the whole hypothesis. You must have concrete, repeatable evidence.

I also feel I should state here that Darwin's definition of evolution is " Descent with modification." Natural selection, which is modifications to increase survival rates through the generations, is in deed a proven fact. All of the other stuff that is now being called evolution is not in any way proven, and scientists just love associating it with natural selection in order to give it credibility that it does not deserve. Sir Real, it even states this on that link you gave me, in the glossary.

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http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/prime.gif

"Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans." - Lennon

[qoute]
Ok, the genetic difference between a human and an ape is between 1 and 2%. This is a fact. Does that mean a chimpanze is a prehistoric form of man? doesn't make much sense does it? I'm not sure why you keep mentioning this 1.5%, as it really doesn't have any significance at all. We are that close genetically to many primates.

I don't remember right now how similar we are to a cow, but we are very close genetically to mammals in general. I do know that we are 90% similar to dogs, and 88-89% similar to horses. So, 10% different from dogs, 11% different from horses, 1-2% different from the apes. Knowing this, how is 1.5% (which is the same with many apes) significant in any way? I'm interested to know.

As far as your link, it sheds no light whatsoever. It says right on that page that cladistics, which is what the page is all about, is based on assumptions. Now I may believe in creation, but I am also a scientist, and assumptions are anathema in science. One cannot assume anything, as that invalidates the whole hypothesis. You must have concrete, repeatable evidence.

I also feel I should state here that Darwin's definition of evolution is " Descent with modification." Natural selection, which is modifications to increase survival rates through the generations, is in deed a proven fact. All of the other stuff that is now being called evolution is not in any way proven, and scientists just love associating it with natural selection in order to give it credibility that it does not deserve. Sir Real, it even states this on that link you gave me, in the glossary.

[/QUOTE]

Well humans and Apes are two branches from the same tree, wew when on way they when another of course were going to be slimmer.
Evolution is " Descent with modification." so it going down with modification huh? that doesn't make even sense, I love to see that comment in some sort of context.
Evolution is the developing of a creature and so is Natural selection.
1.5% difference is the amount of gentic difference between any HUMAN from any part of the world!!! AND of course diffence is small between the mammel groups as we all are from the same gentic templete.
Oh and the link is just something I pucked out of the air.
But enougth of this, You give me some evidence of something other then Evolution.

Well humans and Apes are two branches from the same tree, wew when on way they when another of course were going to be slimmer.
Evolution is " Descent with modification." so it going down with modification huh? that doesn't make even sense, I love to see that comment in some sort of context.
Evolution is the developing of a creature and so is Natural selection.
1.5% difference is the amount of gentic difference between any HUMAN from any part of the world!!! AND of course diffence is small between the mammel groups as we all are from the same gentic templete.
Oh and the link is just something I pucked out of the air.
But enougth of this, You give me some evidence of something other then Evolution.[/QUOTE]


I am sorry you cannot understand what descent with modification means. I have no idea how I can debate the various views on evolution with you until you at least understand what natural selection is all about. If you want context, then very well I will oblige:
I'll even use your own example. Gorilla goes into desert and dies. Another less hairy one goes into the desert and survives. The offspring have less hair. This descendant has been modified to increase survivability.

Why did you pluck a link from the air and then tell me it would shed light on the topic?

If humans vary 1.5% from each other, and apes and humans vary around 1.5% from each other, and yet there are many very obvious differences between humans and apes, then how does fossil record DNA similarity between us and any primate have any value at all whatsoever?

I do not need to give you evidence supporting something besides what you call evolution. All I need to do if point out that that hypothesis is obviously unproven, and shows some flaws, and look to the alternative. Creation was never put forward by a scientist, it's been around as long as humans have. I have never seen one iota of evidence to disprove it. I am confident that I never will. I will accept it based on faith, as it was meant to be accepted.

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"Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans." - Lennon

Test

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Prime2U, Interesting points, personally I don't have a problem with evolution, I don't know how God did it all I know is that He did. IMHO the Genesis story is writen in a way that nomadic shepards could understand (grasp the concept of creation). Take the use of the terms "there was evening and there was morning" it strikes me as odd to assume that an infinite God (not bound by time) would use those types of terms for anything other than to show that there was a passage of time. Rememeber since God is not bound by time what is a day to Him? A billion years? or even a few trillion years? Even now with all of our combined intellect and computing power we still can not get any closer to the time after the big bang than 1 to the 43 power of a second. (National Geographic October 1999). IMHO I find it hard to believe that God would reveal to a bunch of shepards exactly how He did it. Do we even need to know exactly how God created everthing? You start talking about sub-atomic particals (sp?)
and quatum phsyics and my head starts to hurt http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif .
Since you are a scientist I got one for you, who knows maybe it'll get you the Nobel prize for phsyics http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif .(if it does I want a small cut of the prize money) "Time" is the unifying force that the Quatum Phsyicsist have been looking for, not "time/space" but rather "Time". With out time you have no space, distance, movement, velocity, no orbit of atomic particals, or vibrations of sub-atomic particals. We see it as time/space because from our finite point of view we see speed as "time to travel a distance" or amount of distance traveled in a set amount of time. We don't see that it is time that limits us not speed, distance, or any of the other "3" dimensions.
How's that for a monkey wrench? http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif



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Crustiest of the OLD COOTS
Airline ticket to Afghanistan $800
High powered rifle with scope $1000
Hotel room with roof access $100
A clean Head shot on that sack of Horse Manure Usuma Bin Laden PRICELESS!

Point one: you gave a exmaple not context, context is with the words that came before it and after it. Example: out of context: All people under 6'ft are dumb.
In context: It would be like saying that all people under 6'ft are dumb which is just not true.
Oh that also sands like Natural selection to me, less hairy gorilla goes on, so are you amitting that they go had in hand then?

Because we do not use the fossil record DNA of the primates we use the fossil record of those HUMANS that exists before our kind and Seek the geneos that exist only in humans, which are responable for the difference (Oh my 1.5% is the difference between humans, while yours is the diffence between spieces, which I sure is different.)

Creation was tought by scienceist until Evolution was discovered so you are wrong their, and it has not exists scince the beings of humans because Humans have not always had religion.

Well I don't believe in Creation because I story is so flawed as Every religion as a drifent one, Heck cristanity as two is self.
So What is thier to believe? As without evidence I could ssy that BOLGALOT from the planet Ipyournostrol craped on earth and molded the piceces into all life as we know it.

<font size=2>Okay its offical we all made from crap by BOLGALOT from Upyournostil and that how life started</font>

Oh you also don't need evidence to prove you Belief but punch holes in this one? What right do you have then to say anything, I backing up what science tells us, you are just forcing your belief.

Oh the link shelds light on Evolution so I thing it revealent.

[This message has been edited by Sir Real (edited 10-31-2001).]

Yup John, all things I've thought about as well. I agree that a big bang was possible. I don't agree that it was a totally random thing. There had to be something that ordered it to make it have such a perfect structure. I also disagree with another point in current evolutionary views. God spoke a word to create the beasts. But man he molded from clay in His own image and breathed life into. So we did not come from a monkey.

Hmmm, time. I think when we go one to heaven and understand a lot more than now, we will be able to manipulate time however we want to. It'll be nice for instant travel to anywhere hehe. it's entirely possible that time has been self imposed on the human race, because we would go insane if events could not be separated. Cheers! http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by Prime2U (edited 10-31-2001).]

oook, I gave an example so you would understand what I mean. I have no idea what you are trying to say there about gorillas and hands, but I was saying yes, that is natural selection, and true evolution. How do you know those ancient skeletons are of homo sapiens or another species of homo erectus? That is an assumption. Actually sorry, but Creation was understood and taught since the beginning of any recorded history. You cannot make any more guess than I whether it was taught before that, as we have no records to prove it. I'm not pushing my belief. I'm just pointing out that things you are saying as facts are not, they are just assumptions and speculations.

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"Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans." - Lennon

Yea, then we have to get into a theological discusion about "Breathed Life Into" http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif Like I said I don't know how and I'm not so sure I want to know. I have a hard enough time figuring out how to tie my shoes. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif Much less how an infinite God created a finite universe, from the finite point of view. Now I've went and done it my head hurts. http://www.ironworksforum.com/ubb/no...es/biggrin.gif



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Airline ticket to Afghanistan $800
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A clean Head shot on that sack of Horse Manure Usuma Bin Laden PRICELESS!

Homo-erectus IS THE FORE FATHER OF HOMO-SAPIENS the evoluved from them for peat sake! We Put them togeather we can use your knowalage of how the body works (were muslce connects to bone, and the signs of it etc) to see how they were built and therefore we know what they look like and can date them to times were on spieces start exist, and the other ends and as they share many charistics of the predesator we can assume that they follow suit and seeing as it unlike that an new form of life 'magical' appeared it fairly safe to do so.
And Creation (Seeing how you put a captial I take it you mean the cristain fable) had many forfather stories, from Greek to Mayian to freaking Jewish!!
Creation was there ideal of how we came into existance when they didn't the the knowalge we do. Some history don't even have any refance to gods, just the resent hunting trips (YES CAVE PAINTINGS ARE RECORDS OF HISTORY).
And All thing are Speclations by your word even God, for how when give evidence can you just say it a guess, yet say that some all powerful being made us with no evidence at all to be true? And if this God of your is true why did he create shuch evidence to say otherwise? (Oh you also seem assume that all evolutionist don't be god, Which I know not to be true.)

Oh and I leave you this puzzle, Are the geneists who ahve created new forms of plant life from genes of others gods as they molded and breathed life into them?

Ummm... You are speculating again about the Homo erectus. Actually creation was taught before the time of the Jews, or the Greeks, so that's not a correct statement either... Cave paintings are generally considered prehistoric for some odd reason. Yes everything I believe is a speculation based on faith, you are correct. Howver everything you state in your more modern idea that is supposed to displace mine is also all speculation, and as such it cannot replace my belief, which takes precedence.

HA I got you, how can you claim that your speculation is true but what you claim to be mine (You present no evedince) isn't?
And what do you mean modern, the geneticst creating life, well they done it so are, in religious terams shouldn't they be considered gods? but how reason to say it wrong is that you religion got there first, that a laugh.
Prehistoric also applies neo-nolithic people but they had temples and existed aroung the same time as the mayans (Or one of that lot). In fact prehistory, if I recall, talks about any caulture that doesn't have a written record of it existance, mind you I not to sure about that, my minds slowing due to lack of sleep.
Hang on, I just noticed you enitre arument seems to be your speculation is right, becuase a might well of be a work of fiction with added historical notations to give it extra unmp agianst the speculation of nealry all of the science comuinty who have presented tonns of evidence to prove it or have corrected its mistakes to fit with a ever growing bases of Knowlage.
Hell you might as well say that gravity doesn't exist as it only a spection of what causes us to be attracted to the planets core when in fact is tiny invable fairys pushing us down sheees.

I may be behind in my science here. What life has been CREATED by genetiscists?

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"I've had it up to here, listening to a small segment of people try to put down America! America's the greatest land on Earth, and we oughta be proud of what we have! I'm proud of America, I'm proud of our people, and I'm gonna prove it. We're American and DAMN proud of it! Frankly I'm getting a little ticked off...go ta ****"... Dink (if anyone knows who originally said this, please let me know!)

As far as modern, I mean that the theory you support is trying to supplant on already in existance. Exactly what I said already. I'm not claiming mine is necessarily true. I believe it is, but you don't have to if you don't want to. I am saying that yours is, at this point, considered false, because at this point it has no proof to back it up, only speculation. And as it is put forth as a scientific theory, that makes it false. As a hypothesis, who knows, we'll just have to wait and see if it is true or not. But it is definitely not right now. No, when we divide blastocysts to create clones, and any other method of creating a clone or another species of plant, we are not a God in any sense of the word. We are, in actuality, playing with things that we really don't understand. I hope we never try such things with humans, as i fear it will lead to some drastic consequences. My reason to say evolution is wrong is not because creation was first, that is my reason to say creation is right. Because there is no proof that this new theory is correct. Until it can be proven correct, the old idea stands, and that idea is creation. You are correct, prehistoric means they had no written history. As such, we have no way of knowing what they believed. But once we start written history, we see that those people when that first writing began, believed in creation and a higher power of some sort.

I told you one reason why I believed in creation. It is the standing belief, and evolution has no proof, no foundation, to disprove it. Whether you believe the bible is true or not, the original scrolls are dated among the oldest of written history. And they talk of creation.

I cannot say that gravity does not exist, because there is plenty of repeatable proof and evidence to say that it does. It has gone beyong a theory and become a law. You version of evolution has yet to even become a theory.

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"Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans." - Lennon

I have a point for Sir Real: Yes I believe that all human life came from two humans that God placed on this planet. Hard to believe? Well, I find your reasoning hard to believe! All human life came from a rock! OK, that makes sense!

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"I've had it up to here, listening to a small segment of people try to put down America! America's the greatest land on Earth, and we oughta be proud of what we have! I'm proud of America, I'm proud of our people, and I'm gonna prove it. We're American and DAMN proud of it! Frankly I'm getting a little ticked off...go ta ****"... Dink (if anyone knows who originally said this, please let me know!)