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Old 10-29-2001, 09:20 AM   #1
Harkoliar
Jack Burton
 

Join Date: March 21, 2001
Location: Philippines, but now Harbor City Sydney
Age: 34
Posts: 5,556
this is kinda serious.. no offense to all, just got it from my e-mail

Something to reflect on...
"LET ME EXPLAIN THE problem science has with Jesus Christ."

The atheist professor of philosophy pauses before his class and then asks
one of his new students to stand. "You're a Christian, aren't you, son?"
"Yes, sir." "So you believe in God?" "Absolutely." "Is God good?" "Sure!
God's good." "Is God all-powerful? Can God do anything?" "Yes." "Are you
good or evil?" "The Bible says I'm evil." The professor grins knowingly.
"Ahh! THE BIBLE!" He considers for a moment. Here's one for you. Let's say
there's a sick person over here and you can cure him. You can do it. Would
you help them? Would you try?" "Yes, sir, I could." "So you're good...!" "I
wouldn't say that." "Why not say that? You would help a sick and maimed
person if you could...in fact most of us would if we could... God doesn't."
[No answer.] "He doesn't, does he? My brother was a Christian who died of
cancer even though he prayed to Jesus to help him. How is this Jesus good?
Hmmm? Can you answer that one?" [No answer.] The elderly man is sympathetic.
"No, you can't, can you?" He takes a sip of water from a glass on his desk
to give the student time to relax. In philosophy, you have to go easy with
the new ones. "Let's start again, young fella." "Is God good?" "Er... Yes."
"Is Satan good?" "No." "Where does Satan come from?" The student falters.
"From... God..." "That's right. God made Satan, didn't he?" The elderly man
runs his bony fingers through his thinning hair and turns to the smirking,
student audience. "I think we're going to have a lot of fun this semester,
ladies and gentlemen." He turns back to the Christian. "Tell me, son. Is
there evil in this world?" "Yes, sir." "Evil's everywhere, isn't it? Did God
make very thing?" "Yes." "Who created evil?" [No answer.] "Is there
sickness in this world? Immorality? Hatred? ugliness? All the terrible
things - do they exist in this world?" The student squirms on his feet.
"Yes." "Who created them?" [No answer.] The professor suddenly shouts at his
student. "WHO CREATED THEM? TELL ME, PLEASE!" The professor closes in for
the kill and climbs into the Christian's face. In a still small voice: "God
created all evil, didn't He, son?" [No answer.] The student tries to hold
the steady, experienced gaze and fails. Suddenly the lecturer breaks away to
pace the front of the classroom like an aging
panther. The class is mesmerized. "Tell me," he continues, "How is it that
this God is good if He created all evil through all time?" The professor
swishes his arms around to encompass the wickedness of the world. "All the
hatred, the brutality, all the pain, all the torture, all the death and
ugliness and all the suffering created by this good God is all over the
world, isn't it, young man?" [No answer.] "Don't you see it all over the
place? Huh?" Pause. "Don't you?" The professor leans into the student's face
again and whispers, "Is God good?" [No answer.] "Do you believe in Jesus
Christ, son?" The student's voice betrays him and cracks. "Yes, professor. I
do." The old man shakes his head sadly. "Science says you have five senses
you use to identify and observe the world around you. Have you?" "No, sir.
I've never seen Him." "Then tell us if you've ever heard your Jesus?" "No,
sir. I have not." "Have you ever felt your Jesus, tasted your Jesus or smelt
your Jesus... in fact, do you have any sensory perception of your God
whatsoever?" [No answer.] "Answer me, please." "No, sir, I'm afraid I
haven't." "You're AFRAID... you haven't?" "No, sir." "Yet you still believe
in him?" "...yes..." "That takes FAITH!" The professor smiles sagely at the
underling. "According to the rules of empirical, testable, demonstrable
protocol, science says your God doesn't exist. What do you say to that,
son? Where is your God now?" [The student doesn't answer.] "Sit down,
please." The Christian sits...Defeated.

Another Christian raises his hand. "Professor, may I address the class?" The
professor turns and smiles. "Ah, another Christian in the vanguard! Come,
come, young man. Speak some proper wisdom to the gathering." The Christian
looks around the room. "Some interesting points you are making, sir. Now
I've got a question for you. Is there such thing as heat?" "Yes," the
professor replies. "There's heat." "Is there such a thing as cold?" "Yes,
son, there's cold too."
"No, sir, there isn't." The professor's grin freezes. The room suddenly goes
very cold. The second Christian continues. "You can have lots of heat, even
more heat, super-heat, mega-heat, white heat, a little heat or no heat but
we don't
have anything called 'cold'. We hit 458 degrees below zero, which is not
heat, but we can't go any further after that. There is no such thing as
cold, otherwise we would be able to go colder than 458 degrees. - You see,
sir, cold is only a word we use to describe the absence of heat. WE cannot
measure cold. Heat we can measure in thermal units because heat is energy.
Cold is not the opposite of heat, sir, just the absence of it." Silence. A
pin drops somewhere in the classroom. "Is there such a thing as darkness,
professor?" "That's a dumb question, son. What is night if it isn't
darkness? What are you getting at...?" (the professor starting to be
impatient) "So you say there is such a thing as darkness?" "Yes..." "You're
wrong again, sir. Darkness is not something, it is the absence of something.
You can have low light, normal light, bright light, flashing light but if
you have no light constantly you have nothing and it's called
darkness, isn't it? That's the meaning we use to define the word. In
reality. Darkness isn't. If it were, you would be able to make darkness
darker and give me a jar of it. Can you...give me a jar of darker darkness,
professor?"
Despite himself, the professor smiles at the young effrontery before him.
This will indeed be a good semester. "Would you mind telling us what your
point is, young man?" "Yes, professor. My point is, you philosophical
premise is flawed to start with and so your conclusion must be in error...."
The professor goes toxic. "Flawed...? How dare you...!" "Sir, may I explain
what I mean?" The class is all ears. "Explain... oh, explain..." The
professor makes an admirable effort to regain control. Suddenly he is
affability itself. He waves his hand to silence the class, for the student
to continue. "You are working on the premise of duality," the Christian
explains. "That for example there is life and then there's death; a good God
and a bad God. You are viewing the concept of God as something finite,
something we can measure. Sir, science cannot even explain a thought. It
uses electricity and magnetism but has never see, much less fully understood
them. To view death as the opposite of life is to be ignorant of the fact
that death cannot exist as a substantive thing. Death is not the opposite of
life, merely the absence of it." The young man hold up a newspaper he takes
from the desk of a neighbor who has been reading it. "Here is one of the
most disgusting tabloids this country hosts, professor. Is there such a
thing as immorality?" "Of course there is, now look..." "Wrong again, sir.
You see, immorality is merely the absence of morality. Is there such thing
as injustice? No. Injustice is the absence of justice. Is there such a
thing as evil?" The Christian pauses. "Isn't evil the absence of good?" The
professor's face has turned an alarming color. He is so angry he is
temporarily speechless. The Christian continues. "If there is evil in the
world, professor, and we all agree there is, then God, if he exists, must be
accomplishing a work through the agency of evil. What is that work God is
accomplishing? The Bible tells us it is to see if each one of us will, of
our own free will, choose good over evil." The professor bridles. "As a
philosophical scientist, I don't vie this matter as having anything to do
with any choice; as a realist, I absolutely do not recognize the concept of
God or any other theological factor as being part of the world equation
because God is not observable." "I would have thought that the absence of
God's moral code in this world is probably one of the most observable
phenomena going," the Christian
replies.

"Newspapers make billions of dollars reporting it every week! Tell me,
professor. Do you teach your students that they evolved from a monkey?" "If
you are referring to the natural evolutionary process, young man, yes,
of course I do." "Have you ever observed evolution with your own eyes, sir?"
The professor makes a sucking sound with his teeth and gives his student a
silent, stony stare. "Professor. Since no-one has ever observed the process
of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going
endeavor, are you not teaching your opinion, sir? Are you now not a
scientist, but a priest?" "I'll overlook your impudence in the light of our
philosophical discussion. Now, have you quite finished?" the professor
hisses. "So you don't accept God's moral code to do what is righteous?" "I
believe in what is - that's science!" "Ahh! SCIENCE!" the student's face
splits into a grin. "Sir, you right state that science is the study of
observed phenomena. Science too is a premise which is flawed..." "SCIENCE IS
FLAWED...?" The professor splutters. The class is in uproar. The Christian
remains standing until the commotion has subsided. "To continue the point
you were making earlier to the other student, may I give you an example of
what I mean?" he professor wisely keeps silent. The Christian looks around
the room. "Is there anyone in the class who has
ever seen the professor's brain?" The class breaks out in laughter. The
Christian points towards his elderly, crumbling tutor. "Is there anyone
here who has ever heard the professor's brain... felt the professor's brain,
touched or smelt the professor's brain?" No one appears to have done so. The
Christian shakes his head sadly. "It appears no-one here has had any sensory
perception of the professor's brain whatsoever. Well, according to the rules
of empirical, stable, demonstrable protocol, science, I DECLARE that the
professor has no brain." The class is in chaos.The Christian sit... Because
that is what a chair is for.

************************************************** *******


When God created the heaven and the earth, the land and sea, animals, day
and night, man and woman, and so many other things, the Bible ended with
this same statement - And God saw that it was good (NIV). "God saw all that
He had made and it was very good." (Gen 1:31 NIV) The choice of evil was
made by man when he ate the fruit of good and evil, even when God told him
not to. I thank God that I was not made to behave like a robot. I have made
my choice - to seek forgiveness for my sins and continue to walk under the
grace of a merciful God. How about you?
God bless.


------------------
Revived I Am to hunt this world... Banish ye evil or face my wrath...
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Old 10-29-2001, 09:29 AM   #2
Byronas
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Very good explanation Harkoliar.

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Old 10-29-2001, 11:27 AM   #3
Lifetime
Red Dragon
 

Join Date: March 3, 2001
Location: Scotch College, Melbourne
Posts: 1,503
I've never read the whole thing in its full length before..
Thanks for posting that Harkoliar! I hope I dont have to stand up for my faith like that if and when I take philosophy as a subject. I'd just crumble before the onslaught..

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Old 10-29-2001, 11:41 AM   #4
Lifetime
Red Dragon
 

Join Date: March 3, 2001
Location: Scotch College, Melbourne
Posts: 1,503
I've just remembered something a friend and teacher told me a long while ago..

She told me to think of a watch, with its leather strap, gears, cogs and delicate, precise pieces.
Then she told me to imagine that same watch breaking up into its components, and those components into their base materials (plastics, metals, cowhide, glass)
She told me to imagine the materials that went into the construction of the watch all in their basest forms in the natural world. Then she told me to imagine all those pieces forming and coming together into gears, cogs, straps, hands.
Then from all over the world, those pieces had to come together, in precise order, to form a perfectly precise timepiece. She asked me if it was possible that this could happen, and I said yes, I could see it happening.
Then she asked me, could I see this happening thousands of years ago, before humans learnt the craft of watchmaking, all the pieces and materials spontaneously coming together of their own accord by chance and forming a watch.
I said no.
Then she told me to think of the human body. A human body is an infintely more complex device than a watch, containing billions of cells, hundreds of different components, DNA and genetics. If a simple watch could not come together precisely, then what are the chances of a perfectly normal, healthy human being coming from the thousands of possibly paths the theory of evolution could take, and become the most intelligent, dominant species on Earth? All it takes is one chromosome, some missing strand of billions of DNA chains to make a human become mentally retarded, or a gibbering idiot, or some such.
When one looks at the odds of a human being forming totally on its own, let alone the entire natural world, the entire universe, from solar system to distant stars forming into a perfect functioning order, its impossible NOT to see the hand of a greater power, a creator at work.
Here, Science actually complements Religious Faith.
If the creation of life is something we humans are only on the brink of discovering after thousands of years, then what are the chances of it happening on its own?

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Old 10-29-2001, 07:37 PM   #5
Harkoliar
Jack Burton
 

Join Date: March 21, 2001
Location: Philippines, but now Harbor City Sydney
Age: 34
Posts: 5,556
bumpin for anyone who hasnt seen this...

actually wonder where 250 went, he usually likes this kinds of stuff i "think"

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Revived I Am to hunt this world... Banish ye evil or face my wrath...
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Old 10-29-2001, 08:07 PM   #6
MILAMBER
Lord Soth
 

Join Date: March 5, 2001
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,948
That's just a bunch of philosophical rhetoric. When you write an arguement with yourself, you are sure to kick your own a$$. For what it's worth though, it is well written.

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"The object of war is not to die for your country but to make the other bastard die for his."
-General George Patton (1885-1945)

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[This message has been edited by MILAMBER (edited 10-29-2001).]
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Old 10-29-2001, 08:25 PM   #7
CuteCotton
Elite Waterdeep Guard
 

Join Date: October 26, 2001
Location: PBG, MD, DD, HQ
Posts: 48
wow i'm impresed by that, i think i'll go and forward that to everyone, ty for posting it too....quite amazing acutally^^
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Old 10-29-2001, 08:31 PM   #8
Sir Real
Dungeon Master
 

Join Date: October 9, 2001
Posts: 72
Quote:
Originally posted by Harkoliar:
....."Professor. Since no-one has ever observed the process
of evolution at work and cannot even prove that this process is an on-going
endeavor,......

The student is wrong!!! Evolution very easily proven! any proffesser worth a dang should of picked up on.
Otherwise fairly funny.
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Old 10-29-2001, 08:46 PM   #9
Prime2U
Zhentarim Guard
 

Join Date: October 2, 2001
Location: Manhattan,KS USA
Posts: 316
Quote:
Originally posted by Sir Real:
The student is wrong!!! Evolution very easily proven! any proffesser worth a dang should of picked up on.
Otherwise fairly funny.

Hmmm... Natural Selection is easily proved. Evolution involving amoebas becoming primates or a big bang creating a perfect universe...these are in no way proven.
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Old 10-29-2001, 09:10 PM   #10
John D Harris
Ninja Storm Shadow
 

Join Date: March 27, 2001
Location: Northport,Alabama, USA
Age: 56
Posts: 3,577
Harkoliar
Good post


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