I decided to sit down and do a little number crunching while waiting for Laundry today on what is the best start method for a Faerie Bishop and an Elf Bishop (the best to races in the game to become Bishops). I decided to go with the following criteria as well, Int and Spd have to maxed out as soon as possible, but playing with the starting attribute points to try to maximize their overall power. I also decided to look at if starting as another caster first and then switching into Bishop would be a good idea, here is the results I came up with.

Bishop required starting attributes: 55 Int, 55 Pie, 55 Dex, 55 Sen
Mage required starting attributes: 60 Int, 55 Dex
Alchemist required starting attributes: 55 Int, 60 Dex
Psionic required starting attributes: 55 Int, 60 Sen
Priest required starting attributes: 60 Pie, 55 Vit

Faerie starting attributes: 25 Str, 55 Int, 35 Pie, 30 Vit, 50 Dex, 60 Spd, 45 Sen

Elf starting attributes: 35 Str, 50 Int, 50 Pie, 35 Vit, 50 Dex, 45 Spd, 40 Sen

I'm going to leave off Str in the listing of attributes since it is not needed to build an effective Bishop.

Faerie

Mage start, 50 bonus points, final attributes: 68 Int (+8), 52 Pie (+17), 30 Vit, 55 Dex, 73 Spd (+13), 57 Sen

Alchmist start, 50 bonus points, final attributes: 68 Int (+13), 52 Pie (+17), 30 Vit, 60 Dex, 73 Spd (+13), 52 Sen (+7)

Psionic start, 45 bonus points, final attributes (1): 68 Int (+13), 49 Pie (+14), 30 Vit, 55 Dex (+5), 73 Spd (+13), 60 Sen

Priest start, 10 bonus points, final attributes (2): 59 Int (+4), 60 Pie, 55 Vit, 52 Dex (+2), 60 Spd, 49 Sen (+4)

Bishop start, 25 bonus points, final attributes: 62 Int (+7), 64 Pie (+9), 30 Vit, 55 Dex, 67 Spd (+7), 57 Sen (+2)

Elf

Mage start, 45 bonus points, final attributes: 68 Int (+8), 57 Pie (+7), 35 Vit, 55 Dex, 60 Spd (+15), 55 Sen (+15)

Alchemist start, 45 bonus points, final attributes: 65 Int (+10), 55 Pie (+5), 35 Vit, 60 Dex, 60 Spd (+15), 55 Sen (+15)

Psionic start, 35 bonus points, final attributes: 65 Int (+10), 60 Pie (+10), 35 Vit, 55 Dex (+5), 55 Spd (+10), Sen 60

Priest start, 30 bonus points, final attributes (2): 59 Int (+9), 60 Pie, 55 Vit, 52 Dex (+2), 55 Spd (+10), 49 Sen (+9)

Bishop start, 30 bonus points, final attributes: 65 Int (+10), 65 Pie (+10), 35 Vit, 55 Dex, 55 Spd (+10), 55 Sen


(1) - starting as a Psionic will require the Faerie the spend an additional level as a Psionic before switching to Bishop

(2) - starting as a Priest will require an additional level as a Priest before switching to Bishop


Achievement of 100 Int(3), Spd, and Pie

Faerie

Mage: 10/11/25 can also achieve maximum in either Dex or Sen by lv 26

Alchemist: 11/11/26 and can achieve maximum in Sen at 26 as well or could achieve Dex at 25

Psionic: 11/11/26 and can achieve maximum in Sen at 25 or Dex at 26

Priest: 14/16/26 and can achieve maximum in either Dex or Sen at 31

Bishop: 12/12/24 can also achieve maximum in either Dex or Sen 27

Elf

Mage: 11/15/25 and also achieve maximum in either Dex or Sen by lv 30

Alchemist: 11/15/26 and also achieve maximum in Dex by 29 or Sen by lv 30

Psionic: 11/16/25 and also achieve maximum in Sen by 30 and Dex by 31

Priest: 14/18/28 and also achieve maximum in Dex or Sen by 33

Bishop: 11/16/23 and also achieve maximum in Dex or Sen by 31

(3) - This assumes that getting the 5 Int from the Tryton fountain prior to maxing out Int


Faerie

So, looking at the above information, it can be easily seen that for a Faerie that is to be a Bishop, they should start off first as a Mage as they will achieve maximum in Int two levels ahead of if they start as a Bishop and also one level ahead in Spd. They do lose out by one level in Pie, but they also can achieve maximum in either Sen or Dex one level before the Bishop. Starting Alchemst isn't a bad idea either as they are very similar to a Mage (only getting Int maxed one level later). The only thing edging out the Alchemist and going Mage instead is the fact that a Mage starts with point already in the elements they start with (7 points each in Fire, Water, Air, and Mental) while the Alchemist does not, but starts with 4 points less in Realm (Mage start 8 in Thaumaturgy while Alchemist starts 12 in Alchemy). Psionic isn't a bad choice either, but, you have to spend two levels as a Psionic before you can switching into Bishop. Flat out though, bad idea to start Priest and then switch into Bishop. You take a lot longer to achieve maximum in Int and Spd that way. So, when starting a Faerie that will become a Bishop, don't bother starting Priest, best to actually start as a Mage or an Alchemist first (this will depend on taste) and then switch into Bishop.

Elf

Like the Faerie above, don't start Priest if you wish to have an Elven Bishop. Unlike the Faerie though, starting as a Bishop is actually going to benefit you a little more as you will get Pie two levels before starting as a Mage, but Spd one level later. With the Elf, it almost not a bad idea to start off as anything except as a Priest as they all seem to get Int, Spd, and Pie around the same time and will depend more on your preference of which spells you would like to get first.


So, the next time you start out a party that will contain a Bishop, hopefully this will help out in your decision. ;)

Verrry well done. I'll remember that before I start a Bishop again. Perhaps Alch edges out Mage because they can heal (this is important if you have a small party). My only point of contention is the focus on speed. I tend not to max speed for casters, but I do try to get up to 80 or so eventually. I don't even max piety. I put some in strength, vit and dex. If I have a Bard or Gadgeteer (and most others) I definitely go for speed.

The reason for Spd after Int is because of trying to get protection spells up before the enemy casters start casting (Elemental Shield and Soul Shield as well as others that are combat only). Also, the other reason is for debilitation of the enemy as well.

As to Alchemist edging Mage based on Heal, not really. Since you are only spending a single level as the starting class before switching to Bishop, you can always pick up Heal at level 2 (Bishop 1) as the monsters in early monastery probably won't do enough damage to kill any character.

True about heal, you don't really need it a lev 1. I have been working with a small party with one hybrid caster who can heal so over focused on that. I didn't even get any heal til lev 5, now that I think of it. There has been an ongoing debate on fast vs. slow casters. Yes, a faster caster (hmm, could make this easily into a tongue-twister by adding a few adjs) does get shields up quicker and get off an early attack. A slow caster has the benefit against cloud like spells later on which tend to annoy me. It is so nice to cast "remove clouds" or whatever and see them cleared out before the next round begins and they can take effect. Especially Death Clouds. You can increase speed with amulets but not decrease it.

Great information Argonnes. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

However you could also start a bishop as a stealth using class and take up stealth to acceptable limits, at first level and then change to bishop.

You could always take Purify air on either a Valk or a Lord and have them be slow, since slowness for them doesn't make much of a difference. I realize this takes away from an offensive punch, but, it does give you an out if you are going to be dealing with cloud casters.

Also, going with a Rogue type class first would hurt you a bit more as you would lose out on some very useful bonus points and stealth doesn't increase quickly enough in the early game (lv 5 or less), so you would need to spend too many levels as a Rogue. Better to hold off till later, say when you are in the lv 10 to 15 range, switch into Rogue for 1 level there and then stick there until you get your stealth to where you like, then switch back to Bishop. This way you only push back getting your level 6 and 7 spells 2 levels versus pushing them back 5 or more levels.

[ 05-02-2004, 07:17 PM: Message edited by: Argonnes ]

You could keep your rogue/bishop at lvl 1 until stealth gets up to say 75. Your party could progress in levels and then when stealth hits the level you want you could make him a bishop and level up all of the levels accumulated. I am however not sure whether the stealth here would be worth losing out on the magic skill increases. So I partly agree with going rogue later.

In your calculations, did you consider also the free 5 Int you can get in the game?

And what about the ability to carry stuff?
Ive tried both and personally prefer the elf as u can carry more and equip more 'stuff'.

Yep, it's built in Scatter.

As to carrying stuff, that's what the other 5 characters in the party are for... ;) Really, which race you choose comes down to personal preference, but Faerie does have a couple of advantages that the Elf doesn't. Having spell points replenish faster is a big plus in my book and is well worth the lose of being able to carry more stuff.

Nice work Argonnes,
Personally, all my Bishops start out as Bishops, just to keep it simple. Earlier access to all the spells. Never tried a stealth level, but I'm thinking about it. Although Faeries have 5 or 10 more points in the places that count when compared to elves, no one so far has mentioned the biggest reasons for why you should pick an elf:

(Spoiler alert here)
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1) Robe of Rejuvenation. Faeries can't wear 'em, and they are twice as good as that SP advantage faeries start with. And don't forget the HP regen and stamina regen.
2) Infinity helm. Faeries can't wear those either. "But wait!", you say, "Bishops can't wear Infinity helms!". That's true.... but Rangers can. And turning your Bishop into a Ranger on your last couple levels may be worth it to wear this wonderous item. You will never need to rest again.

[ 05-03-2004, 12:47 AM: Message edited by: Dedzy ]

There's another big plus if you start a bishop as a mage, and thats the 7 or 8 bonus points to several realm skills. A pure bishop has to cast his starting skills in red, a mage casts them in green.

I did use a fairie and an elf bishop in a few parties, but IMO its not a good thing. A fairie is great as your only offensive spellcaster, due to the mana regeneration in the early game. If you add an elf, this advantage is lost, since you'll usually rest until both are regenerated. And if you add another fairie, well, there's only one amulet of nebdar, and few other fairie stuff.

Another point against fairie bishops is the unability to use better armor nad a shield. This is no problem for a fairie mage or psionic, since these claeese are very restricted anyway.

First of all, very good work.

I do have a quibble though... and it's one I've seen commonly in character development plans. Your stated goal for your Bishop is to get 100 in Int, Spd, and Pie as quickly as possible. Excellent plan, unlocking the 3 most useful expert skills for a party Bishop. So good, in fact, that I'm going to add an extra provision to the plan:


Don't spend a single attribute point in any attribute other than Int, Spd, and Pie until all 3 are at 100.


Let's take a look at what it means to adhere to that rule. I'll take the straight Elven Bishop first, as it's the simplest case. (And yes, I'm going to count Int as maxed at 95 for reasons most of you are familiar with.)

Elf starting attributes: 35 Str, 50 Int, 50 Pie, 35 Vit, 50 Dex, 45 Spd, 40 Sen
Bishop required starting attributes: 55 Int, 55 Pie, 55 Dex, 55 Sen

Elf Bishop, before assigning bonus points (30 available): 35 Str, 55 Int, 55 Pie, 35 Vit, 55 Dex, 45 Spd, 55 Sen

Elf Bishop start, after assigning 30 bonus points: 35 Str, 65 Int (+10), 65 Pie (+10), 35 Vit, 55 Dex, 55 Spd (+10), 55 Sen

That's the same point assignment you used, which puts the points exclusively in the 3 attributes you care most about. In fact, from here on out, we only care about Int, Pie, and Spd, so let's recap focusing on them:

Level 1 Elf Bishop: 65 Int, 65 Pie, 55 Spd
Goal: 95 Int (+30), 100 Pie (+35), 100 Spd (+45)

Already we can tell that we need 30+35+45 = 110 points to achieve our goal. If we keep our attributes focused on just these three attributes, it will take us 19 levels to get those 110 points (114 actually). That maxes them at 20th level. Now we just need to figure out how to do that in such a way that, for any level, we're putting no more than 3 points in each attribute. Here's one such solution for the Elf Bishop:

Levels 2-4: +3 Int, +3 Pie (Level 4 Elf Bishop: 74 Int, 74 Pie, 55 Spd)
Levels 5-11: +3 Int, +3 Spd (Level 11 Elf Bishop: 95 Int, 74 Pie, 76 Spd)

Note that at this point, Int is "maxed", and Pie and Spd are just about even.

Level 12-19: +3 Pie, +3 Spd (Level 19 Elf Bishop: 95 Int, 98 Pie, 100 Spd)
Level 20: +2 Pie, +4 other (Level 20 Elf Bishop: 95 Int, 100 Pie, 100 Spd)

So, instead of maxing Int/Spd/Pie for the Elf Bishop at 11/16/23, we max them at 11/19/20. The advantage of this plan is that you will have much more game-time with your character having access to all 3 expert skills, and that you don't waste a single point in a non-critical attribute until 20th level. The disadvantage is that you wait longer to get your second expert skill... in fact it comes in just before or at the same time as the third one. That third one, though, comes in a LOT sooner. 3 levels may not seem like much, but let's try another example:


Faerie Bishop

Faerie starting attributes: 25 Str, 55 Int, 35 Pie, 30 Vit, 50 Dex, 60 Spd, 45 Sen
Bishop required starting attributes: 55 Int, 55 Pie, 55 Dex, 55 Sen

Faerie Bishop, before assigning bonus points (25 available): 25 Str, 55 Int, 55 Pie, 30 Vit, 55 Dex, 60 Spd, 55 Sen

Faerie Bishop start, 25 bonus points, final attributes: 25 Str, 64 Int (+9), 64 Pie (+9), 30 Vit, 55 Dex, 67 Spd (+7), 55 Sen

In this case, my initial assignment is a tad different, focusing entirely on Int, Pie, and Spd.

Level 1 Faerie Bishop: 64 Int, 64 Pie, 67 Spd
Goal: 95 Int (+31), 100 Pie (+36), 100 Spd (+33)

Already we can tell that we need 31+36+33 = 100 points to achieve our goal. If we keep our attributes focused on just these three attributes, it will take us 17 levels to get those 100 points (102 actually). That maxes them at 18th level. Here's one such solution for the Faerie Bishop:

Levels 2-6: +3 Int, +3 Pie (Level 6 Bishop: 79 Int, 79 Pie, 67 Spd)
Levels 7-11: +3 Int, +3 Spd (Level 11 Bishop: 94 Int, 79 Pie, 82 Spd)
Level 12: +1 Int, +3 Pie, +2 Spd (Level 12 Bishop: 95 Int, 82 Pie, 84 Spd)

Note that this time we needed a "tweak" level to achieve the state where Int is "maxed" and Pie and Spd are just about even. This is actually more common than the Elf Bishop case.

Level 13-17: +3 Pie, +3 Spd (Level 17 Bishop: 95 Int, 97 Pie, 99 Spd)
Level 18: +3 Pie, +1 Spd, +2 other (Level 18 Bishop: 95 Int, 100 Pie, 100 Spd)

So, instead of maxing Int/Spd/Pie for the Faerie Bishop at 12/12/24, we max them at 12/18/18. By focusing 100% on our expert skill attributes, we get the Powercast, Snakespeed, Iron Will complete package a whole SIX levels earlier than the original plan.


I hope I've convinced some of you that it's worth taking a more careful look at attribute allocation than the default "max #1 and #2, then #2 and #3, then #3 and #4 ..." plan.

Actually, I see your point there Klutz...doing a little rehashing on using the Faerie Mage start, you could do the following:

lv 2 - 9: +3 Int, +3 Pie (92 Int, 76 Pie, 73 Spd)
lv 10: +3 Int, +3 Spd (95 Int, 76 Pie, 76 Spd)
lv 11+: +3 Pie, +3 Spd

Pie and Spd hit 100 at lv 18.

Still would end up a little better for a Faerie to start Mage and switching into Bishop at lv 2. Starting Mage would get you the Int maxed at lv 10 vs. at lv 12.

Even better:

Faerie Mage (50 bonus points unassigned): 25 Str, 60 Int, 35 Pie, 30 Vit, 55 Dex, 60 Spd, 45 Sen

Assigning initial bonus points to get Int as high as possible and get as close as possible to Bishop min requirements, we can get:

Faerie Mage, Level 1: 25 Str, 77 Int (+17), 52 Pie (+17, 3 short of Bishop min), 30 Vit, 55 Dex (+0, already at Bishop min), 66 Spd (+6), 55 Sen (+10 to Bishop min)

Level 1: 77 Int, 66 Spd, 52 Pie
Level 2: +3 Int, +3 Pie: 80 Int, 66 Spd, 55 Pie (Switch to Bishop)
Level 3-6: +3 Int, +3 Pie: 92 Int, 66 Spd, 67 Pie
Level 7: +3 Int, +3 Spd: 95 Int, 69 Spd, 67 Pie (Int maxed at level 7!)
Level 8-17: +3 Spd, +3 Pie: 95 Int, 99 Spd, 97 Pie
Level 18: +1 Spd, +3 Pie, +2 other: 95 Int, 100 Spd, 100 Pie (Pie and Spd maxed at level 18)

7/18/18 is definitely better than 12/18/18, at the cost of spending one level as a Mage instead of a Bishop. Similarly, the Elf Bishop can go from 11/19/20 to 8/19/20 by spending one level as a Mage. Note that you can never do better than sticking to a single class the whole game for purposes of maxing all your attributes that you are interested in, because extra classes can only add requirements, never take them away. However, I think this is the best example of what you were looking for initially: using the freedom you get from a simpler base class to get a jump on your primary attributes.

The simple reason that the Priest, Alchemist, and Psionic are all suboptimal to start with (for an Int/Spd/Pie Faerie or Elf Bishop) is that every one forces points to be added to something other than Int, Pie, or Spd beyond what a Bishop normally requires. Priest forces Vit to 55, making it the most wasteful: 20 points "lost" for an Elf and 25 points "lost" for a Faerie. Alchemist forces an extra 5 points to be "lost" to Dex and Psionic forces an extra 5 points to be "lost" to Sen. Mage is the only caster class whose extra requirements over Bishop are strictly helpful for the Faerie or Elf: in this case, +5 to Int.