<font color = mediumspringgreen>All,

I was startled, yesterday, while researching some info on the Bard.

I have known, for a long time, that the "War Chant of the Sith" among other important things, affected the Bard's AC or THAC0 -AND- the enemies' AC or THAC0. I had forgotten which it was (AC or THAC0), and really didn't care: since it makes no difference in the equations whether it's a bonus to your AC or a penalty to enemy THAC0 that determines whether you take a hit. And similar story for whether or not you deliver a hit to the enemy.

Well, I decided I should set my rhetoric straight, for the benefit of those roleplayers who care about whether the benefit/penalty goes to AC or THAC0. The answer is that for the Bard's friends the benefit goes to AC (dropping it by 2 points). I verified, in game, that AC does drop by 2, and there is no affect on friendly THAC0. Based on that revelation, I would expect the song to affect enemy AC (as opposed to THAC0).

Now, here is the surprise: I couldn't find anything in the on-line community that says anything about the War Chant affecting enemy THAC0 or AC! I do not know how to easily verify, in game, that War Chant is affecting monster AC/THAC0; and my instruction manual is not easily accessible because the disks have been packed away for over two years. (I have a "no-CD" fix to my IWD/HoW/TotLM install.) Of the very little material I have found on-line and in this forum. nothing mentions any effect of the Bard's War Chant on enemy stats.

I am stunned. Am I in the Twilight Zone? I know I didn't make this stuff up (about the War Chant affecting the enemy); but I am at a temporary loss to even point to the reason I THINK I am right, much less prove my case. What really surprises me is that I am unable to unearth any extant posts on the subject (other than my own) that reference other sources.

Dundee Slaytern, you, the Great Oracle Of IWD Knowledge, are the only one left who frequents this forum who was also here doling out flawless data when I was a plebe. Help me now, Mr. Wizard: What's the story on the effect of War Chant on the enemy's stats?

Anyone else, who knows how to unquestionably verify the affect of this Bard's song (i.e. you have deep and excellent IWD game experience and a very good memory, or are using a game editor/parser), please speak up.

Thank you.

</font>--------------------<font color = mediumspringgreen>
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!
</font>

<font face="Verdana" size="3" color="#00FF00">NobleNick I don't think this song affects enemies only that the amount of damage they can do will be reduced due to the allies having higher resistances. I believe the song gives +10% resistance to crushing, missile attacks, piercing, and slashing, to all allies thus reducing the amount of damage the enemy does. That is pretty much a penalty to all monsters except spellcasters. The only song that I know of that actually targets enemies is The Siren's Yearning.
</font>

[ 10-14-2004, 10:48 AM: Message edited by: pritchke ]

I can unquestinably verify that other than the SY no song affects enemies....

if in options you chose feedback to give you the to hit rolls you'll notice it doesnt affect enemies rolls...

The WCoS gives -2AC 10% resistance (cumulative with other resistances) and regeneration 2HP/round to allies...

And while we're on the topic...how often can a bard play any particular song? Can I just play the same one over and over again or can you only play a song once in any given day?

Cary

ZFR and pritchke have it right, AFAIK.

And Cary, you can play a particular song 24/7, if you wish. Some of us do. :D

<font color = mediumspringgreen>Cary,

War Chant of the Sith, 24/7, with very short interruptions to call Berserkers and throw a spell or two. No matter how this current issue plays out, Bards still rock.

</font>--------------------<font color = mediumspringgreen>
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!
</font>

If you wish to be absolutely certain here's the spell in question: link.

All positive effects - 0xCE is spell immunity (and, I imagine, setting protection against the spell to bard and enemies).

From the CD-Manual,

<font color = mediumspringgreen>All,

Thank you for your replies. I found ZFR's and silencer's posts with hard data especially helpful. Pritchke, nice to hear from you again!

Dundee, I have the same excerpt you just gave, in one of my old e-mails. You were my last bastion of hope in remembering any conversation that there might have been about a schism between the documentation and the actual game play; or at least some reasonable explanation for why I am just plain dead wrong on this.

O.K., time to throw in the towel. I hereby apologze to all whom I may have led astray. Bards don't really, REALLY rock in a fighter-heavy party. They just really rock in a fighter-heavy party.

</font>--------------------<font color = mediumspringgreen>
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!
</font>

The War Chant of Sith benefits Druids greatly too, not just Fighters( or Warrior-type characters in general, inclusive of Paladins and Rangers).

Druids can change into the Water Elemental which has physical resistances to... Slashing Damage I believe. I am a bit fuzzy on the numbers now, but I remember that the resistance was not 100%, but close to 90%.

The War Chant of Sith adds 10% to this score, making the Water Elemental's Slashing Damage Resistance into Slashing Damage Immunity. This is especially cheesy on many areas.

The Druid also has the ability to summon the Shambling Mound, which has immunity to fire and 90% resistance to Crushing Damage. Throw in the War Chant of Sith, and it becomes immunity to fire AND Crushing Damage. This nullifies Fire Giants and Remorahazs(sp?).

The examples I have just mentioned are merely the tip of the iceberg of what you can do with a Druid/Bard tag-team.

Simplistically speaking, a Bard enhances the party's strength.

I'm aware that these games are based on PnP 2nd Ed. Dungeons & Dragons (which I've never played and am not very familiar with except through CRPG). If any Bard fans know, I'm curious why Bards were created as subclass of Rogues since, historically, the Celtic Bards were a subclass of Druid priests. A friend's older brother had a copy of 1st ed. AD&D Player's Handbook, and the Bard was listed in an appendix as an optional class, but wasn't a rogue subclass.

In the game, Bards primarily cast mage spells and there are several Bard/Mage-only items. It seems that, if anything, Bards should be a subclass of Mages. The only similarity between Bards and Thieves is their pickpockets ability, but using that logic Rangers actually seem more rogue-like than Bards, since rangers have stealth and there are a lot of Ranger/Thief-only specialty items in the game. The literary model for the Ranger seems to be from Tolkein, but Aragorn didn't cast spells or dual-wield. I think the Ranger should have been fighters with stealth and given find/remove traps (but no spells). The Thief should have been be the only character with pickpockets. And Bards would have their songs, but use Druid spells instead of Mage spells.

[ 10-25-2004, 09:40 AM: Message edited by: jmsteven ]

In the game, Bards primarily cast mage spells and there are several Bard/Mage-only items. It seems that, if anything, Bards should be a subclass of Mages. The only similarity between Bards and Thieves is their pickpockets ability

<font color = mediumspringgreen>Good questions.

In IWD/HoW, **MY** Bard spends 98% of her time singing. And the songs she sings have almost exclusively Cleric-like properties.

I wonder if Lore ability is considered Rogue-like?

Looks like the Bard was truly crafted to be a jack of all trades.

</font>--------------------<font color = mediumspringgreen>
What's a party,
without a song?
Bards ROCK!
Party On!!
</font>

SPOILERS BELOW...

I wouldn't think so, otherwise thieves would have great lore, too. It seems like a purely "bardic" ability.

Personally, I like bards and was considering soloing with one except they can't fight or heal very well. Having low HP and not being able to use some of the better armor, helms, and shields in the game doesn't help either.

I guess maybe if the bard were equipped with Rogues Cowl, Baleful Mail, and Messenger of Sseth, it would help...but not enough to make him my soloist of choice; unless of course you can convince me otherwise...

I believe bards while being one of the best classes in a party are one of the worst for soloing... Like NobleNick says their greatest ability is singing and that simply won't help while soloing. Same goes for a rogue (pure class) who while being a good support character cant do well soloing.

<font color = lightgreen>I use my bard specifically to take a lot of pressure off the clerics since the War Chant regenerates health. Although I don't use bards in BG or BG2, I wouldn't create a party for IWD that didn't include one. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

I use Siren's Yearning much of the time, also. Depending upon the enemies facing us, we either gang up on whoever is enthralled or ignore them for later. </font>

Bards are Rogues in their approach to life and wandering lifestyle, not just for their attributes. In 2nd ed. D&D they also had 4 out of the 8 possible thief skills. They also didn't get the bardic songs - well, they got one approximating Siren's Yearning, but that's about it.

And, not that I've done it myself, but apparently bards are quite good for soloing. Not in and of themselves, but combine the Horn of Valhalla with War Chant of the Sith...

Apparently you can also gain control of the berserkers (Quicksave then Quickload).