To make the game more harder I want to know which ones are the weakest classes ?

<span style="color: lightblue">Shapeshifter (Pre rebalancing).
Undead Hunter.
Monk who never levels up.
Mage with 3 in all stats, using no girdle, ring, or cloak.
Sorc who doesn't use any spells.

[ 06-03-2003, 03:03 AM: Message edited by: LennonCook ]

The weakest classes IMHO are the "I am actually a ... but want to be a ..." kits. The

Swashbuckler - "I am a thief but can't backstab. Yeah I'm such a tough fighter-badass but I can't wear more than ;eather armor"

Inquisitor - "Yeah undeads fear me more than any other Paladin kit except I can't turn undead like them. I also can't lay on hands but have an infinite supply of detect evil. Yippie!"

Barbarian - "I'm tough but I can't move. I would be easily surpassed by a fighter but I can rage x times a day. *shudder*"

Shapeshifter - "GRRRRRRR! I'm fearsome as a werewolf ... NOT. Luckily I can't wear ANY armor"

Totemic Druid - *looks to a cleric full of envy* "Why can't he wear mail and plate armor? Why can't he use real shields and specialize in weapons? *sob*
Ah well, I'm going to summon one of my pets. Come here Rover ... good dog."

and finally:

BeastMaster: "Stay away from me with your filthy iron and bronze weapons I use my good old baseball bat. And don't tell me it's no use against a Dragon. I am going to give Firkraag a good whackin'"

"Monk who never levels up.
Mage with 3 in all stats, using no girdle, ring, or cloak."
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These are imposiblle.
The game should be broken in order to prevent s.o. playing it from lvl up.
The game does not allow 3 in all stats until some other program is used to do so.
May be I asked my question incorrectly.

What SoA nad ToB kits will make your character as weak as possible ?

Time to disagree ;) ...

Swashbucklers gain substantial hit and damage bonuses, making them a weaker version of the kensai. In terms of damage per round (with the right weapons equipped of course ;) ) they will trump any fighter other than the kensai. The studded leather armour limitations are completely irrelevant since they get great AC bonuses as they level up. By level 40, a swashbuckler will have around +9 ot their AC. This is the class that can attain the highest permament AC.

Do they get infinite detect evil abilities? Didn't know that. The lack of turn undead and lay on hands is made up by having access to true sight (always a useful spell) and, more importantly, a speed factor 1, 2 x level dispel magic ability.

Why can't the Barbarian move? The Barbarian is actually a very close match for a Berserker, and IMO would trump a straight fighter. He may not be able to achieve mastery, but he gets a speed bonus, immunity to backstab, rage (powerful) and most importantly, physical resistances.

They don't need armour ;) . The shapeshifter is actually a very underrated class. The Great Werewolf ability grants an awesome AC bonus, and provided you buff up before you shapechange (iron skins/AoF etc) they make absolute tanks!

Simple, druids have better spells than clerics ;) Druids have access to Scimitars (and therefore have a higher APR rate ;) ) and at higher levels, Druids get powerful shapeshifting abilities and elemental resistances. There's more to a character than AC you know [img]smile.gif[/img] .

The Beastmaster has the second highest HP out of all the classes and kits (second only to the Barbarian). There are sufficiently powerful clubs and staves, and powerful armours that only count as studded leather. Staff of Rhynn +4 and Shadow Dragon scale makes SoA a breeze, and once you get into ToB and wield the Staff of the Ram +6 and the White Dragon Scale, things get even easier. Then, to top it off, they will eventually have 3 castings of a level 6 summoning spell. Having up to 5 powerful bears/lions at your disposal makes tougher fights much easier over a standard Ranger.

What's my point you ask? Well, I think all classes can potentially be very powerful if played correctly, it simply depends of your playing style. For every class that someone says is the weakest, I can think of multiple advantages that balance out the disadvantages. The classes/kits are well balanced in this game, and I don't think any one class can be crowned the weakest.

Straight Figther, maybe? try soloing one...not easy. lets try a few examples:

Fighter vs. thief=thief using potions/rings of invisibility and backstab

Fighter vs. mage=dead fighter [img]smile.gif[/img]

Fighter vs. barbarian=barbarian killing fighter due to physical resistance & HIGH hp and strenght(DUHM+Rage), dex, con

i dont think i need to go any further, any spellcaster can pretty much kill the fighter, pladins can kill a fighter due to Carsomyr(dispelling any potion buffs, i believe) and thiefs have backstab(excluding the swashbuckler, whom is a better fighter than the straight fighter at high levels). thats just my opinion though.

It's possible never to level up, just don't you the "level up" button, and what he probably meant was create a sorcerer with minimum possible stats in everything. ;)

You are correct Luvian - I missed that.
Faceman I must disagree with you about the inquisitors. I developed one. This is not weak class - he was wizards' (NPC only) nightmare.

By the way sorry for the syntax errors.

BG2 is not so unbalanced that some of the kits are completely redundant. There are, however some of the kits that are a bit weaker.


Ranger - Beastmaster. Quite playable as you can find a few good leather armors around (most notably a certain set of dragon scale). It's special perk (woot - My summoning spells are at lower levels, but I still have to use my precious few slots on them) is a bit weak when compared to it's drawback.

Druid - Avenger. The concept is cool enough. A kind of "artillery druid" so to speak. Also the new shapeshift forms are actually somewhat useful. Still the few mage spells that it gets access to only make it's spell selection a tiny bit better than that of an ordinary druid. This has to be compared to it's significant drawbacks.

Mage - Diviner. Who in their right mind would ever choose a diviner in this game? Firstly, the divination school spell list in this game is extremely lackluster. Sure Identify is a cool general purpouse spell and Detect Invisible and True Sight is two awesome spell protection strippers, but besides these three there is really nothing else of value. ..And then you have to put 16 points in wisdom and lose access to all conjuration spells. Happy days!


I don't know why you speak out against the totemmic druid Faceman? I personally find it stronger than a regular druid. Losing access to the shapeshift forms isn't that big a drawback since the shapeshift forms are not really that useful in the mid-high level setting of BG2. Instead you get an innate ability summon that is decent at high level and cleans house at mid level.

[ 06-03-2003, 07:54 AM: Message edited by: Indemaijinj ]

Not necessarily. I once had a straight human fighter as my PC (don't know what came over me) but he was powerful. Granted, I didn't solo him, but he could still beat a wizard by himself. With the right resistance potions and armour, a fighter can cream a wizard. It all depends on how you fight and the situation of the battle. Sure, a mage can defeat a fighter, but vice versa is just as feasible.

A generic fighter can be even easier to play that its certain kit. A Kensai would last even less against a thief, because a generic fighter would have a better chance to aviod being backstabbed. And a thief can backstab&immediately go invis, providing that you anyway wouldn't be able to hit/kill him. Generic fighter, at least, has a better chance to survive till the thief runs out of potions/charges [img]smile.gif[/img]

Paladins are weaker version of fighters, and their only resort against them are cleric spells. Prebuffing is always great. But still a fighter CAN beat a paladin, providing the fighter makes all his saving throws against Hold Persons etc [img]smile.gif[/img]

One situation where a pureclass fighter sucks compared to its kits is a fight against a mage. Kensai can remove mage's stoneskins faster, Berserker can become to many-many-many things, Wizard Slayer is a WS by definition.... But if you play correctly (and with some cheese) and attack the mage only if you are able to damage him (waiting for protections to run off etc) then no problem! Mage dies. And don't forget that a plain fighter can use ranged weapons to full extent, as compared to kensai/berserker, and arrows of dispelling are not so rare...

What I am trying to say is that EVERY single class can and will become a powerhouse kick-a** bio-bulldozer at high levels. Point.

I'm interested LennonCook, why Undead Hunter? I'm playing one now and he's very strong. Immune to hold okay not that big but immune to level drain - fantastic! And you get large bonuses to hit undead of which there is alot in this game. The only drawback no lay on hands - big deal! You have two curelight wounds bhaalspawns abilites for much of the game which make up for that. Also you can turn undead at a higher level than a normal paladin or cavalier and at high levels can buff yourself with priest spells! Doesn't sound like a weak class to me! So why do you think it's weak? IMO all the Paladin kits are VERY good! [img]smile.gif[/img]

I play the 'best' class [img]smile.gif[/img]
i prefer a hard game with a hard class
people thing because the have readed the
info they know a class you need to play at least
2 chapter before you can know if a class is good or bad
and then another thing 'good' or 'bad'
it will depend on the men/woman what class suits her/him
best and not at all, ive played an mp with a duude with same class
he died in first chapter ... i didnt ... like i said it will depend
on you if you like a class or not [img]smile.gif[/img]

Not necessarily. I once had a straight human fighter as my PC (don't know what came over me) but he was powerful. Granted, I didn't solo him, but he could still beat a wizard by himself. With the right resistance potions and armour, a fighter can cream a wizard. It all depends on how you fight and the situation of the battle. Sure, a mage can defeat a fighter, but vice versa is just as feasible. </font>[/QUOTE]what i meant was that were there two equally skilled PC's(and the characters have the same exp. points) fighting against each other, than the mage would most likely win, since the mage could cast all kinds of protections and spells which deal MASSIVE damage(dragons breath and ADHW for example, assuming that the characters were not in the same party), or lower saving throws and stun, instant kill or blind the fighter(which makes it extremely easy to kill someone. since the fighter wont be able to hit the mage(do arrows of dispelling bybass PFMW or absolute immunity? not sure...), how can he beat him? if one wanted to get even more cheesy, the mage could cast invisibilty right after the fighter buffs him self with potions and then just wait for them to wear off(this, of course, is hyphothetical, since very few would have the patience to wait for many hours for one or two buffs to wear off). granted, a fighter CAN be powerful(just as any class can), it would just be pretty hard to solo one since a straight fighter has no special abilities, thus i would say a fighter is the "weakest" class, at least on its own. in a party, well, thats a different story...

1)A kensai would only have to gulp a potion of invulnerability to have nearly, if not better, AC. 2 ac here and there(since the best armor has a -2 ac, i believe, and PoI grants an ac of 0), doesnt affect that much.

2)Paladins arent necessarily the "weaker" version, they just may not have the edge in a fight against a fighter, since they specialize in fighting mundane creatures.

3)It doesnt really matter what kit the fighter has if the mage is prepared for the fight...(not sure if the WS's miscast magic bypasses certain protections, such as PFMW or absolute immunity/mantle(s))

Weak(est) characters:</font>

• Straight Paladin (not really weak in itself, but all of the kits are better)</font>
• Straight Fighter (the Berserker, Kensai, and Archer leave the pureclass in the dust)</font>
• Straight Cleric</font>
• Straight Druid (easily trumped by the Totemic Druid)</font>
• Bounty Hunter (can Maze 3 enemies per day, if they fail their Save or don't have Magic Resistance. Whoopee)</font>
• Diviner (say goodbye to Find Familiar, Flame Arrow, Spider Spawn, Wish, etc)</font>
• Invoker (adios to the previous spells, and also Greater Malison, Emotion: Hopelessness, Chaos, & Feeblemind)</font>
• Transmuter (just try a Solo game without Protection from Petrification, Resist Fear, Dispel Magic, Breach, Lower Resistance, Spell Immunity, Spell Shield, Protection from Magic Energy, Protection from Magic Weapons, Spell Turning, Pierce Shield, and Spell Trap)</font>
• Enchanter (Name a spell that actually hurts the enemy, and the odds are 4 to 1 that you can't use it. Better hope the enemy doesn't have Death Spells.)</font>
• Wizard Slayer ("I have sacrificed the ability to use half of the best items in the game in order to kick ass against wizards. Now I need to go find a Monk to kill this wizard for me, while I stand over here and gaze longingly at this healing potion.")</font>
• Beast Master (So--the ability to cast Animal Summoning is worth being reduced to Shadow Dragon Scale and Blackblood? Is Call Lightning not worth the spell slot or something?)</font>
• Shapeshifter ("See, I'm just like a normal Druid--except I can't wear armor--and I'm also just like those Greater Wolfweres in the Windspear Hills! And boy, they sure were a challenge, weren't they?")</font>
• All Bards except the Blade ("Hi there! Name any Multiclass character in existence, and they'll be sure to kick our collective butt!")</font>

Raistlin: The Wizard Slayer's ability to cause Spell Failure is just like the enchantment on a weapon: It must actually make contact with the target. Spells such as Mantle and PfMW will block it, but Stoneskin will not.

I disagree a bit with you on the Enchanter my dear SixofSpades.

Sure the invocation school is powerful, but it is not essential in the same way as the abjuration school is.

There are plenty of damage spells outside the invocation group and many of them are very good (do we need to mention ADHW). Really the only place where the enchanter gets really shafted spell-wise is in the level 1 spells department where they miss out both Magic Missile and Chromatic Orb. Sure Larloch's Minor Drain can restore your hit points, but that spell sucks!

Actually the worst thing about giving up invocation is not losing a damage spell, but rather a summon. I mean, it really hurts not being able to cast Mordenkainen's Sword.


But then again, I think it says something that there is not a single enchantment/charm spell among the top three spell levels.

Can I just point out that my swashbuckler is one of the post powerful characters in my game? Let me tell you his usual form.....
(Note: I'm excluding Watcher's Keep bonuses, I haven't done that yet!)

19 Strength
20 Dexterity
18 Constitution
14 Intelligence
6 Wisdom
21 Charisma (+2, Blade of Roses)

Armour: Shadow Dragon Scale
Main Weapon: The Blade of Roses
Off Hand Weapon: The Equaliser
Helmet: Some Ioun Stone (+1 AC, +10 Hp or something)
Necklace: Periapt of Proof Against Poison
Belt: Belt of the Interial Barrier
Cloak: Cloak of the Sewers (Nymph Cloak when buying stuff)
Boots: Boots of the Elvenkind
Helmet: Thieves' Hood
Ring 1: Ring of Gaxx
Ring 2: Ring of Regeneration
Quick Slot 1: Potions of Superior Healing (Or 'Sendai's Own' if I have any)
Quick Slot 2: Scrolls of 'Mislead'
Quick Slot 3: Any Other Random Scrolls

Also note the fact that he can easily beat Minsc to shreds (Or chunks technically! [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) in ToB. There seem to be an abundance of Mislead scrolls in ToB that he can use. I kit Minsc out with the best stuff I can find, and he never wins in my little duels. And a few 'Whirlwind Attacks' don't go amiss either.

And if anyone has any suggestions on how to improve my Swashbuckler, suggest away by the way! ;)

Can I just point out that my swashbuckler is one of the post powerful characters in my game? Let me tell you his usual form.....
(Note: I'm excluding Watcher's Keep bonuses, I haven't done that yet!)

19 Strength
20 Dexterity
18 Constitution
14 Intelligence
6 Wisdom
21 Charisma (+2, Blade of Roses)

Armour: Shadow Dragon Scale
Main Weapon: The Blade of Roses
Off Hand Weapon: The Equaliser
Helmet: Some Ioun Stone (+1 AC, +10 Hp or something)
Necklace: Periapt of Proof Against Poison
Belt: Belt of the Interial Barrier
Cloak: Cloak of the Sewers (Nymph Cloak when buying stuff)
Boots: Boots of the Elvenkind
Helmet: Thieves' Hood
Ring 1: Ring of Gaxx
Ring 2: Ring of Regeneration
Quick Slot 1: Potions of Superior Healing (Or 'Sendai's Own' if I have any)
Quick Slot 2: Scrolls of 'Mislead'
Quick Slot 3: Any Other Random Scrolls

Also note the fact that he can easily beat Minsc to shreds (Or chunks technically! [img]tongue.gif[/img] ) in ToB. There seem to be an abundance of Mislead scrolls in ToB that he can use. I kit Minsc out with the best stuff I can find, and he never wins in my little duels. And a few 'Whirlwind Attacks' don't go amiss either.

And if anyone has any suggestions on how to improve my Swashbuckler, suggest away by the way! ;) </font>[/QUOTE]some item related spoilers
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wondering how you are wearing the thieves hood and the Ioun stone [img]smile.gif[/img] . anyway, you could replace the Ioun stone your using with Wong Fei's Ioun stone(+1ac, +15 hp and regenerate 1 hp every 6 secs) and the shadow dragon scale with the Grandmasters Armor(movement speed same as boots of haste, ac 1), human flesh(ac 3, +4 saving throws and +20 magic resistance) or the studded leather armor of thorns(ac 1, 1d4 fire damage to attacker). The amulet of cheetah speed would make you even faster, but thats really not necessary anymore. im not completely sure if you were 100% serious in asking for advice, but apparently i gave some anyway :D

[ 06-03-2003, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: Raistlin Majere ]

I was serious on asking for advice actually! Excuse my mistake of wearing not only a completely useless hood, but also an Ioun Stone. I like the Shadow Dragon Scale, it's AC 1 and I like the Acid Resistance. I like the suggestion on the Ioun Stone, if someone hides in shadows I usually Mislead....

I forgot to mention that I'm a Chaotic Good didn't I? Silly me! [img]tongue.gif[/img]

And thanks for the advice!

[ 06-03-2003, 04:26 PM: Message edited by: DJG ]

ToB Spoilers...
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UAI is a wonderful tool...

I'm not really down on Enchanters, but it's my opinion that they just aren't as useful as a straight Mage, at least not unless you've got <u>another</u> Mage to do the mopping-up. Sure, an Enchanter can neutralize whole rooms full of enemies, but actually killing them is another matter. Yes, they've got Abi-Dalzim's, but do you really want to toss an ABHW where a Fireball would do just as well? And they don't even have two of the very best disabling spells in the book: Stinking Cloud and Web. No Cloudkill, no Death Fog, no Mordenkainen's Sword--and no Contingencies or Sequencers.

I must admit that I have been remiss in not checking to see if Specialist Mages can use Wands that cast spells forbidden to their School.

If you want a real challenge, then do the game ironman (roll only once for your stats regardless of class, solo, and no reloads). I tried it just on a whim and it is a LOT harder than imagined!

Hey, I am doing this custom party:

Fighter - STR 18 DEX 9 CON 9 INT 9 WIS 9 CHA 9

Thief - STR 9 DEX 18 CON 9 INT 9 WIS 9 CHA 9

Barbarian - STR 9 DEX 9 CON 18 INT 9 WIS 9 CHA 9

Mage - STR 9 DEX 9 CON 9 INT 18 WIS 9 CHA 9

Cleric - STR 9 DEX 9 CON 9 INT 9 WIS 18 CHA 9

Sorcerer - STR 9 DEX 9 CON 9 INT 9 WIS 9 CHA 18 (this is also the Bhaalspawn).

Should be fun.

I think "challenging" is correct word. at least until you get certain equipment

<span style="color: lightblue">Not Sorcerer. *MAGE*. Stats mean almost nothing to a Sorc. But a *mage*... low Int means no level 9 spells, means no Time Stop, means no Improved Alacrity, means no Wish, means no Planetars, and you spend a looonngg time in mazes... and, ofcourse, there's those Mind Flayers.
Low Con means even *WORSE* hitpoints. Low dex means bad AC. Low strength means you can't carry anything, and you can't hit anything. Low Cha means things cost alot.

No girdle means you can't fix Strength or Constitution.
No ring or cloak means you can't fix Charisma.
And since your spellbook can fill up (and will), I'm not gonna see you knowing Friends...

You can still fix your AC from you Dex penalty,but you'll have alot of trouble using any weapon - Str and Dex - and so you'll have a bit of trouble getting the Staff of the Magi.

Now, lets make this even harder still. [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]
No Armour.
Bracers of Binding.
Everything of the tactics mod.
No Ease of Use, or Item Upgrade.
SNR on Insane.

<span style="color: silver">EDIT: Undead Hunter. Well, their bonuses aren't something you wouldn't get from items anyway. And those items have other bonuses that will make you not ignore them, registering the Undead Hunter's bonuses redundant.

[ 06-04-2003, 05:57 AM: Message edited by: LennonCook ]