Hailo a couple weeks ago there was a topic similar to this. I have been looking for it but can't find it. So I decided to start it up again. Now before I say something about how superior mages are to their lowly small minded sorcerors I need to know this. When mages gain a level do they learn a spell from their school without using scrolls? This time I am going to prove that mages are DA [img]graemlins/rocking2.gif[/img] BOMB [img]graemlins/rocking2.gif[/img]

Oh I forgot to mention I say this to all Sorcerors [img]graemlins/bart.gif[/img]

Joking of course can't wait! Hope they don't bring in their heavy attilery (That means you Dundee!)

This wouldn't be the particular thread you were looking for, would it? [img]smile.gif[/img]

Mages do not learn any new spells when gaining a level. The only ones they can learn without reading a scroll are the ones you get to choose upon creation.

Thanks Rataxes now I can get all the quotes from Dundee bwahaha.

No a mage can't do so but how can a sorceror! Unless you imported that high level a sorceror from another saved game. Not all fresh level uh 8-13 Sorceror! Or you simpliy got a whole lotta XP.

Yes Dundee you are right oh so ri hITE! But you know what Mages with a very high intellgence can scribe scrolls. Obviously there are many scrolls in the game so you can learn em level up much faster heck if you are soloing and learn a level 9 spell (9000 XP) heck you would level up 2 or 3 timeS! And lets look down at your sorceror for a minute.

Clap his hands!!!??? Cmon! You are right mages have to scurry around to get some of the best scrolls but a wise and smart mage would not always hunt for just the best and ignore the rest . A mage can easily get a low level scroll right right. He can just erase some of the spells from his memory (if you have TOB installed) and rememorize those low level spells heck if they were unlimited scrolls in the game the mage can have a unlimited amount of XP! And to stack that off a mage gets more XP when fighting of eninimies AND to stack it one more time is when the mage who knows a larger variety of spells can take down bigger and more powerful enimies.

Okay I have to agree with you on this one Dundee. Mages do depend a lot of scrolls. Sorcerors do level and get some itsy bitsy spells! So WHAT!! Leveling up takes 4ever dude. Now same thing is with the mage. I know by the great heroric stories that you are a BG2 Veteran. You must know that every dungeon you cross there has to be at least 3 scrolls. Now a sorceror can pick them up and use them later. But mages on the other hand boy they can just pick them up and learn them and use the spells as many times as they want.

Ey tell me if I went a little overboard they aye!

Sorcerers! I haven't used mages ever since I discovered the true powers of Sorcerers!!!!

Mages have to buy/find scrolls (which are sometimes rather expensive) when a Sorcerer merely has to level up by doing a couple of quests. Sorcerers gets more spells per day then mages. Sorcerers can use more advanced tactics then mages.

Eg:

Bob the mage has nothing but Mirror Image in his Level 2 Spellbook. One day he encounters a troll, and then he casts Mirror Image for protection. After Minsc knocked it to the grounds he was shocked to find that he could not kill the troll, who instantly jumped up and ripped Bob and Minsc into tiny little pieces.

Jim the Sorcerer is level 13 and has a couple spells in his level 2 spellbook. He encounters the same troll, and he casts Mirror Image, then gets Minsc to beat the troll up. Unlike Bob he chuckled when the troll fell and launched an Acid Arrow which killed the troll and gave him & Minsc a level up. Hurrah!

In a CRPG, the Sorcerer holds a bit of an edge. As I have mentioned before, in PnP, spell selection for a sorcerer might be school based or randomly selected by a DM. Spells would most likely be based on parentage.

In the above mentioned scenario, involving a troll, in PnP, that might play out a bit different. What if your sorcerer could not have Melf's Acid Arrows? What if they were an enchantment based being? Or Illusion based? Or, Melf's Acid Arrows was not a spell selected for you by the DM? A sorcerer has innate spells. Meaning they are already there. Meaning he or she has no choice in selection really, they already exist within you, meaning you are stuck with what you have. CRPGs are broken in this aspect, allowing the player to make a choice over his or her spells. A sorcerer has no idea what sort of power lurks inside. In all honesty, when a sorcerer levels up, his spell selection should be made by the computer and be totally random. Afraid of getting spells that might suck? In PnP, that's part of the fun of playing a sorcerer. Learning to work with what you have and finding new ways to make it effective somehow. Of course, within the power gamer circle, most folks would soon be shouting the sorcerer sucks, and, the mage would become king. But there would be a few who would relish the challenge of trying a solo sorcerer when the rules are actually followed and all spell selection was based on a lucky roll of the dice. Your Sorcerer might not have Magic Missle, or, even Chromatic Orb. Infact, based on how the rules should be applied, in the first level of spells, your sorcerer might get unlucky and get no offensive spells at all. Or they might get stuck with spells like Burning Hands and Grease as their only offensive spells. Thus bringing out the fun factor.

But as it is, the game is broken, and, the sorcerer can be custom tailored to become a living nuclear weapon. If the game was fixed however, how many people would still love the sorcerer?

Sorcerers are the best, and it boils down to one very simple reason - when the wizard is in a battle and he only has a few spells left, what does he do?

The mage is stuck - he has the spells he has memorized. if he can't use them - tough!

The Sorc? He can cast whatever he wants.

In a tight spot, the mage casts what he can and hopes it works. The Sorc casts what he needs, and lives. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Give it a rest....In BGII and TOB Sorcers win hands down

I just finished a game using the Tasha mod. By the end of chapter three she had time stop and by the time we exited the Underdark she was just shy of being a deity.

In the future I will be hard pressed to think of ANY reason to take Aeire into my party.

My next game…solo sorcerer.

[ 01-13-2003, 01:36 AM: Message edited by: SilverBear ]

[quote]Bob the mage has nothing but Mirror Image in his Level 2 Spellbook. One day he encounters a troll, and then he casts Mirror Image for protection. After Minsc knocked it to the grounds he was shocked to find that he could not kill the troll, who instantly jumped up and ripped Bob and Minsc into tiny little pieces.

Jim the Sorcerer is level 13 and has a couple spells in his level 2 spellbook. He encounters the same troll, and he casts Mirror Image, then gets Minsc to beat the troll up. Unlike Bob he chuckled when the troll fell and launched an Acid Arrow which killed the troll and gave him & Minsc a level up. Hurrah![\QUOTE]

Excuse but wouldn't your average smart mage learn more level two spells. Any type of mage is smart enough to get all the spells (she can. Not having enough spells in any level is completley stupid I mean it! Dude you are making us mages look stupid!! Next Quote

Dude I think you have it the other way around. The mage can cast whatever he wants and a sorceror is stuck with only a small handfull of spells. And what in the 9 hells you mean if he has spells memorized he can't use them? In a tight spot a mage casts what he cans and hope it works!!! DUDE what planet are you from! The last sentance oh my goodness. Dude everything you say is messed up reverse that and you got that right!

Hmm. That sounds like fun...

I sense misunderstanding and a need for clarification.

You ask how can a Sorcerer cast Time Stop in Chapter 3. Let it be known that a solo Sorcerer can easily enter Chapter 4 at level 25+. Solo Sorcerers gain XP like nobody's business, because people die, lots of people die.

A Mage loses out in this aspect, and suffers the IWD-HoF syndrome. All the spell slots in the world, and not enough good spells to fill them up. You will be hard pressed to have a good and varied selection in your level 7-9 spells before entering Chapter 6.

Sorcerers can meet Dragons, Liches, Mind Flayers, Golems, etc... and use Time Stop + PRATI to rain Hellfire and Brimstone upon their unsuspecting heads. Men will die, wives will weep and children shall huddle under their beds when a Sorcerer really gets going in the game.

A Mage can emulate the Sorcerer to a certain extent, but where a Mage is a Nuclear Bomb, a Sorcerer is a Hydrogen Bomb.

A Sorcerer is more versatile in the heat of the battle. Understand this, if your Mage only memorised one Stoneskin, you only get one Stoneskin during the battle. A Sorcerer can still have a second, then a third, maybe even a fourth for a lark.

Trying to argue that a Mage is more versatile than a Sorcerer during a battle is futile, because it is simply not true. A simple test to demostrate this is to ask yourself, how many Mordenkainen Swords can either Mage or Sorcerer cast without the aid of Spell Trap, Wish or Resting?

The answer will be rather disappointing to Mage users. ;)

A mage can memorise as good selection of spells, but if he wants to have versatility he can only have a few of each level. A sorc can cast acid arrow as many times as he needs, without having to stop, switch out other level 2 spells and rest to memorise. I run into a troll and I have 3 mirror images available. But I also have 3 acid arrows available. I can cast 3 level 2 spells, but which spells are my choice, at the time. Not my choice, last night.

Your mage may be able to learn more spells, but who cares how many you have in your spellbook? What you have memorised is whats determines your offensive capability, and the sorcerors spellcasting system means he dosent have to choose ahead of time what to take into battle.

Of course, a sorceror who make poor spell choices is far inferior to a mage, since a sorceror cant correct later. This is why mages are easier to play. But easier to play does not mean they are more powerful.

Ah, dude? What have you been smoking? Thinking about your thread topics and arguements before posting them will save you much embarrassment.

When arguing (or at least disagreeing) with Dundee about Sorcerers, there are precisely three options.
1) Dundee is right, and you are wrong.
2) Dundee is wrong, and you are right.
3) You and Dundee are both wrong.

The option that IS the case, has always BEEN the case, and will always BE the case is #1 -- especially if you don't know jack sh*t about Sorcerers.

In a similar vein, don't argue with me about Thieves. :D

People need to learn....dont argue with dundee. One, he is the source on sorcerers...and two, he is a mod [img]smile.gif[/img]

Anyway...a mage has nothing on the sorcerer. Sure, he can memorize almost all the spells in each level..but think about it-how many are you actually going to use? There are only about 5 worth-while spells per level, and a sorc automatically gets the ability to cast a large number. And I prefer versatility to numbers, dont you?

In my opinion, the Mage has but a single advantage over the Sorcerer - the option to be "dualed to" and the ability to be a part of a multiclass.

Everyone needs HP (and no, this is not hidden advertizing [img]tongue.gif[/img] ). Period. It's simple - the more, the merrier. Now, considering the fact that a dualed Fighter/Mage can have about 3 times the HP of a Sorcerer with similar XP, i think it can certainly be considered as an advantage. Not to mention the ever-popular Kensai/Mage and Berserker/Mage combos, whose abilities are well known. ;)

ToB HLA Spoilers
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Second, the multiclassed Fighter/Mage, Cleric/Mage or Thief/Mage will all have one big advantage over the Sorcerer - having two pools of abilities to pick from. Time Stop + GWW, Time Stop + Harm, Spike Traps and the like are all effects the the Sorcerer will find hard to simulate.

Now, don't get me wrong - i am a Sorcerer fan.
I just think that this matter is not one sided as it seems. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 01-14-2003, 05:06 PM: Message edited by: Alson ]

Well, two little things a Mage has going for them, both minor, but, important for some reasons to some folks. Warning, minor spoilers!
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A Mage can be imported from BG. After using all of the books, a mage could potentially have better stats, and, because of this, slightly more options for a few select situations that a Sorcerer would not have. By ToB, a mage could have 20 con if rollled properly, possibly even higher, allowing for their own regeneration, not all that useful really, but, fun for role playing purposes. Also there is a good chance at having better wisdom for Wish spells.

Two, a Mage can legally get the Golden Pantaloons for the Big Metal Unit. With out cheating. Now, I don't have ToB, but, from what I have read, the Scorcher is a darn good weapon.

Yes, I know, I know. Thief/Mage is one of my favorite multi's. However, Kensai/Mage is too strong. Kensai alone is incredible, but kensai with timestop, shapechange, alacricity (sp), and all the others?

The other (granted, minor) advantage a Mage has over a Sorcerer is the ability to scribe scrolls for LVLx1000 XP. It's not a big advantage, particularly when soloing (since XP comes so fast), but in a party game, it can be a big help. Three Mages scribing every single spell possible (with help from Potions of Genius for poor little Aerie or Jan, of course) can be worth an extra 2.25 million XP to the party. Nothing to sneeze at, certainly, & can be improved upon by having "disposable" characters scribe extra scrolls or having one of your Mages erase a spell then scribe it again.

- Imrahil

I better clarify something before people start getting the wrong impression. My Moderator status does not mean you cannot disagree with me over game matters. When I debate, I debate as a gamer, not as a Moderator.

I only invoke my Moderator status( indicated by a Ironworks Hammer in my posts) when I deal with forum matters. I consider it in bad taste to abuse authority.

Well... the Mage has to be given some advantages. ;) Can you imagine the cheeseeee factor if the Sorcerer was allowed to dualclass or multiclass? Kensai->Sorcerers are the stuff of dreams. After all... the Sorcerer is not a kit, but a class.

That said and done though... you know very much as I do that a high-level Wizard can have diddly-squat for hitpoints and still last longer and far better than a high-level Warrior or Rouge. Hitpoints is nice to have, but a Sorcerer can survive just as well with low hitpoints.

You did mention the Cleric/Mage though, and this is actually one of the classes that I feel can outshine a pureclassed Wizard. The cheese potential of this combination is very promising, but I never got around to really experimenting with it.

In a debate of pureclass versus pureclass though, the Sorcerer still rewards more than the Mage.

Yes, this is an advantage I admit, but it is not the Sorcerer's fault that its' class was not included in BG1. Given equal opportunity, a Sorcerer will be quite fearsome in BG1 as Sorcerers have immensely superior firepower even at the low levels. Mmmmm... a Sorcerer in BG1 with the BG1 Ring of Wizardry. [img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]

The ironic thing of course, is that the XP is spread out among the party, making the XP contribution at most, mediorce. It would be faster and easier to just head over to a quest and beat up some monsters to gain the quest reward. The class that benefits the most from scroll-scribing is the Bard and the Thief/Mage.

I better clarify something before people start getting the wrong impression. My Moderator status does not mean you cannot disagree with me over game matters. When I debate, I debate as a gamer, not as a Moderator.

I only invoke my Moderator status( indicated by a Ironworks Hammer in my posts) when I deal with forum matters. I consider it in bad taste to abuse authority.</font>[/QUOTE]It was a joke. Lighten up.

Three things - the bard does indeed gain best from scribing scrolls. I set up a solo bard game just to see how much XP one can gain from ch1. Since you can scribe/delete (with ToB) I managed to get to level 16 [img]smile.gif[/img]

Any class can beat any other given the right circumstances. I thought we'd been round these houses before?

Cleric/Mage looks excellent judging from Aerie's performance. The extra combination of spells, plus the fact that the increased speed from Vecna applies to both lots of spells gives some awesome firepower (plus she can wear helmets/carry shields)!

Finally (I know this is 4). Sorcerors suck. (See *I* can argue with Dundee!) [img]smile.gif[/img]

As I was saying, "to clarify". ;)

<font color="lightblue">Sorc has less spell variety. Oh, boo hoo.
Sorc can`t scribe scrolls. So what ??

When a sorceror learns a new spell, he has no chance of failing to learn it, no matter what the difficulty level, no matter how smart he is.
A sorceror can quite literally be a braindead obese twit with no decision making skills, who has trouble carrying a pea, moves so slowly that he can`t move at all, and who everyone wants to kill on sight he`s so ugly, and still make it through the game on Insane Difficulty.
A mage in that situation I`d be surprised if they made it out of Chateau Irenicus with Jasper`s help.

On multi-class mages... *any* Multiclass has a high cheese potential, if you have TOB installed. Take for example the Fighter/Cleric... two shots, enemy chunked. Mightn`t work too well against a mage, though... takes two High-Level Abilities, and cast two spells. Anyone care to guess how ?? http://img.ranchoweb.com/images/lennon/sagrin.gif
(Guesses via PM/IM please). </font>

............well okay okay okay!! I give up man its like 500 to one like one level fighter against 50 Fire giants. *sigh* You know to be tottaly honest I never really did try out a mage (well I did once but it things didn't get to well) tried out a sorceror (things didn't go that smooth either I didn't have 18 int and picked the wrong spells sometimes) Well you know what would be a powerful combo! A mage sorceror multiclass!!! THink of it you get a huge bonus of spells and you can scribe scroll and whoaa the possiblities are almost endless. But you know I think I am going to try a mage\Thief never multiclassed and I like a thief soo.......

P.S. I admit Sorcerors are a whole lot stronger in high levels
P.S.2. But wizards are better than sorcerors at lower levels you know scribe a scroll kinda thing.
P.S.3. I am going to try out a mage/thief as soon as my friend gives me a copy of disc 3.
P.S.4. The PS PS 2 PS 3 IS not secret advertising! (Buy one get 3 FREE)

To clarify, Jasper is part of the Dungeon Be Gone mod.