The second amendment refers to owning guns for the sole reason of a Militia, no other reason; not hunting, not sport, not collectables, just militia. If anyone thinks we need a Militia these days they are not understanding why we pay taxes. We have a military unit ready for battle if need be. I don't see any gun owners dropping what they are doing so they can go fight somewhere. It states men can be called up anytime the state or country wants, no draft just an order to be there. I think most gun owners whould have a problem with that. they would not be taking their own weapon, they would be using one paid for by tax dollars. No, there is no need for a Militia, which is the only reason for the second amendment. If they want to own a gun for Militia reasons have them keep it in a locked down centers where they can only be accessable when a militia is called up. I don't think the gun owners would be preaching the 2 amendment then they would finding ways around the wording then.

I believe the militia is meant to be used against those who you pay taxes to as well, if they become corrupt. That's, at least, how I understand it.

OK Gab what was the USA unemployement rate in 1996? what is the unemployement rate now? which one is lower which one is higher? What was the avg. US unemployement rate for the 8 years of enlightenment('92-'00)? Which is higher the umeployement rate now or then? I'll take your bet on the unemployement rates of other contries exspecily(sp?) European countries all day long, we can compare you WILL find the USA unemployement rates are considerably lower useing the standards you are applying to the current situation in the USA of 5.6 % unemployement. Oh and while you are at it I believe you'll find the unemployement rates also don't included those that are self-employeed. So don't try and give me the "ones that have stopped looking" crap, if they stopped looking they don't deserve a job. Their fault not anybody else's fault, they CHOOSE to stop looking. If I can find a job I want I'll take a job I can get, but that's me I don't think anybody owes me anything I an responsible for my own life and actions, the rest of you people can do what you want, sit and complain, get off your butt and do something It matters not to me. I'll be doing something I've got to many people depending on me! For me to be sitting arround and whinning about this or that.

We may just start on making nearly 30 countries democratic that's for the future I have no problem with that, do you?

Why the "Hale" should I care about what others think, when they sure as "HALE" don't care about what I think? that is an extremely arrogant point of view for them to have: You the USA must care about what we think , but we don't have to care about what you think! I don't deal with or accept Arrogant Hypocrits points of view, Nor I believe they have to deal with or accept mine. That is called being fair.

A few reminders- personal disagreements need to stay in private mail and posting private messages or parts of them is against the ToS.

Please keep private spats out of the thread.

I know I've had to say this before to others in this forum on several occasions, but just to be perfectly clear : Don't post parts or all of emails or pm's without the permission of the other party. As a general rule of thumb in this forum, anytime you have to start a sentence with, I know I'm not supposed to (or variations on the theme) .... it's a good bet you shouldn't.

You'll have to provide the figures on that T.L> from what I can see EDUCATION is the single largest item in the budget and has been for nearly 4 years maybe more.

On healthcare this is where you and I part company T.L. I KNOW very well the cost of healthcare for a major illness (cancer, heart attack, etc.) It is not the responsiblity of the Gov't to pay for that each of us should be responsible for ourselves and our families. Over the last years I've had to make some Hard(hard by the whimmpy crybabies of this world) choices concerning the healthcare of my family, the choices were easy for me to make. Because the choice was for somebody to live or me to have somekind of item (DvD, new car, new clothes, etc.) I choose life for somebody and I don't regret for a single second making that choice. Remind me in a few years to let you know what has been going on in the Harris household over the last 3 years. You can plug that info into any one of the so-called stress tests, and I believe you'll find the so-called stress level would take down a small country ;) does the Gov't have the responsiblity to solve my problems or do I? I don't know about you but I choose to solve my own problems, that's life it's tough it's mean and it will rip your face off PooP in the hole then sew your face back on so you taste it for as long as you live.

Now answer me this of the people ALL over the world who can afford to have healthcare anywhere on this planet where do more of them come for healthcare?
Is it one of the "social medicine" countries or the 'Good Ole USofA ? A "Hale" of a lot more come here then people from here go anywhere else!!!!!!!!! That's a fact jack. ;)

I don't know how old you are Keal or your exact situation, but from my experiance(sp?) in life you seem to have a good head on your shoulders. So I'll give you some advice, from an OLD COOT probibly your dad's age. Life's hard tough and mean, it's an uphill battle all the way. There are 3 types of people in this world. 1) Those that look at the moutain and don't even attempt to climb it, but sit at the bottom and complain the mountain is to tough.2)Those that climb for a little while then stop and complain it's to tough. 3) Those that climb and keep climbing no matter how tough it gets.

The choice is up to you as to which one you will be. It's your life, you will answer for what ever you do, you will reap the rewards or the punishment for you actions. I hope you will be smart enough to limit the punishments and maximize the rewards.

What about those who fall off the mountain? What about those needing a guide, a sherpa, to get them to the top? What about those that want to buy part of the mountain, install a gondola, and charge everyone else? What about those at the top of the mountain who have nothing better to do than throw rocks down at everyone else?

I find your analogy wholy insufficient. I believe you need at least a 10-page discussion to flesh it out thoroughly. Let's ask John Kerry to write it for you. [img]graemlins/readingbook.gif[/img]

*runs*

Stratos, The hard part about that is, who decides when a militia is needed? I agree with you, that's why the idea of a militia was conceived. The country was in a different state of being back then, and the idea was a good one but, short sighted I believe. Could you imagine if our nieghbors grabed their guns and began revolting against the local government? I think we are too large a country for the second amendment to be relative.

No one has any ultimate call on when a militia is needed. Technically ANYONE could say: Now we need to kick some goverment ass!

In any case, any militia that opposed the goverment would be considered illegal by said goverment, amendment or not.

I can, and I do. If we went to D.C. and dragged lawmakers out on the mall and lynched them for just a bit, maybe we'd get their attention. Nothing else is working.