Closer analysis:

3 (and possibly 4) of the characters Krull mentioned are good at melee; this poses the question: how many are really required (especially for the first 20% of the game)? Hint: the game isn't called Melee 8.

both a dwarf priest and a lizardmen rouge will act as meat shields quite nicely for the initial 20% of the game, the others (non-bishop) will become very good at melee by about the 40-50% marker - and Krull wanted 3-4 melee'ers in his party.

Next question: when do you need protection spells and who can provide them? Hint: notice the level I mentioned (now check back and see what a pure caster can select, if properly developed, at this level).

Dual classing is usually more effective than pure hybrids (non-dualing hybrids) when considering stratgic development of your party, (refer to the questions above). In particular (beyond those mentioned by EEWorzelle) dual classing allows for a strong magic caster (4th level spells or better) to become good at melee by choosing a class that is "aligned" with their mage class, (look at my recomendations again). Alternativly it can allow stong magic casting and strong stamina casting with a Bard/Gadgeteer mix with a mage-type class (and additionally allow for ranged and melee participation as well). (Also note the attributes needed for both classes - they overlap.) Yes ChaosTheorist has done much better analysis here, you will in fact loose the ability to stamina cast those higher level spells - but so what? What are your other members in your party capable of (and how many are there)? Additionally, how much stamina do these higher level spells take? (As the Isuzu add says: go farther......at least in your analysis - but don't go over that waterfall.) You'll see that the pure Bard route is far more expensive. Additionally, I really only suggested the bardtender becuase Krull wanted a bard. And NightOwl, the ONLY special class ability I've found to truely be worthwile is stamina regeneration (beyond of course berserk and backstab), the others just don't cut it. They can be easily replicated by magic or wearable items (and bettered, as mentioned with the samurai analysis). Moreover they can be replicated at a time in the game when they are really needed.

Hope this helps!

....and nice analysis ChaosTheorist! You picked up on several key elements to a Bardtender - now why the Felpurr, why the Speed attribute, and why the recruitment position? (the gender is just to common/easy.) And yup, I realize that Krull left out a physical ranged attack element, frankly I see that as more of a bonus. The emphasis was as you assesed magic to magic and physical attack, (of course there is a lot more to it than this alone). A mook and a giant sword for the last 50% of the game makes a rather compelling melee'er, ranger or not.

[ 06-28-2003, 04:54 PM: Message edited by: ScottG ]

Get lots of beer and pizza.. and don't forget to invite friends!

[ 06-29-2003, 05:53 AM: Message edited by: Variol (Farseer) Elmwood ]

(blush) Gee, thanks! ;)

Yeah, that's one of the (OK, minor) irritating aspects of the game. Sure, we take advantage of it--put the Bless'er/Haste'r(s) in slot(s) 1/2 and use fake move--but it still irks me that the engine just throws away the entire concept of Initiative in that situation.

whats a "fake" move?

I assume a fake move is when you hit the walk/run button then, when it's your turn to move you cancel it?

CT, I don't understand what you mean putting the haster/blesser in the top two slots. I've never heard of this before.

Thanks.

Dat's it.

When you schedule a move on a turn--even if you don't actually go anywhere--the game completely ignores the relative Initiative ratings of the party members for the remainder of that turn. Instead, they take their actions in straight (Western) reading order, i.e. left-to-right, top-to-bottom, or 7/8/1/2/3/4/5/6. So, put your character(s) that cast Bless and/or Haste in the top slot(s). Then, on any combat where you can afford to schedule a move (and thus let at least some of the opponents go first) on round 1, your buff-caster(s) get to cast Bless/Haste at the start of the round, so all the other characters benefit from the buff(s) immediately. Not a tremendous advantage, but it's free simply by recruiting the characters in the appropriate order when creating the party.

I keep saying Bless/Haste because they're the most obvious choices, but it could be anything. That's why the Bard is a good example of the value of this technique: depending on the situation and the opponents, you might want your Bard to cast an immediate Bless, Haste, Insanity, Silence, or (if it's Saxx) Soul Shield.

[ 06-29-2003, 07:15 AM: Message edited by: ChaosTheorist ]

It sure depends on the party. In my latest game I played only with the four casters priest, alchemist, mage and psionic in a party of 6, and for the first time I developed an alchemist that focused primarily on melee combat, i.e staff and wands and close combat. She turned out to be almost as good as any hybrid I have developed by level 15, and was way better with magic than any hybrid would be. Her realm skills were about 30-40 at level 20, but alchemy skill was 90+ (decluding bonus), while her combat skills were 80+. She could still cast power 5 acid bombs, power 5 body of stone, power 5 quick sand, level 3 tsunami etc at green-yellow. The ac was 20+ after armor shield, and about 26 after a power 5 body of stone.

Also, my psionic was very good when I put 3 points into ranged combat and 3 into throwing every level up. Psionics have a tendency to run out of spell points very quickly, so with a wrist rocket in one hand and medusa stones in the other, they can still do good damage. Or perhaps they could use powders or potions. It's nice when the psionic can join in the surprise attacks by using cherry bombs or stink bombs, fire bombs et.

[ 06-29-2003, 08:09 AM: Message edited by: el_kalkylus ]

Interesting. I always fail when I try to develop a battlemage type. My problem is not, that he/she won't hit the opponent, my problem is crappy armour & crappy HP. My current party (4 bish, EM/IM) realized in the sea caves, that they forgot the helm of serenity, went back to Trynton, faced 5 rattkin thieves (lvl 7: puny), I got cocky & didn't cast GA/BoS, result: after the first round my gnome bish (73 hp IIRC, AC 20) was left with 21 HP. Of course GA/BoS makes all the difference, but permanently babysitting my two semi-tanks kinda defeats the purpose of a magic heavy party for me. Fior this party it's nearly always better to summon some elementals or rely on offensive magic.
So I would be interested: how do you get an AC 20+. The best I can get is AC 20, with Armorplate 7, ComC, 2x Amulet of Healing, Flak Jacket etc. Is there an item I'm missing? And did you invest in vit?
Thanks in advance

Yes, with the +3 ac cape that you can buy from Ferro and Bela for 60,000, it's possible to get 20+ ac. Then there is the cape of stealth that gives you +5 ac. I think my Alchemist wore snakespeed boots, robe of rejuvination (+5?), stud chaussets, chamois gloves and the +3 cape worth 60,000 gold and 2 Amulet of Healing. No vitality invested except the start 50 vitality, race mook. I only invested in strength and intelligence, then speed and senses.

It's true that you have to keep the front line alchemist buffed up with GA and BoS. But I do that to a fighter too in hard fights. Most of the times, only BoS is enough protection for the alchemist. But I know that Goons have great to-hit and are strong, so against these you have to use GA too, then fire away with all the effect spells. Elementals are usually very good to divert attention too though, but not always necessary.

Interesting on the fake move thing - I've often wondered (with recruitment of melee'ers first) why those fighters would loose their first attacks (as the monsters had not arrived yet in their charge to my party). I'd definitly consider the fake-move to be cheese (and not even cheese I'd recomend - roqfurt, stillten, ect.).

No, acctually the reason (for the 3) is of course related, but more "honest". Recruitment position seems to effect initiative regardless of a fake move - but not relative to other party members, rather it seems to be important relative to your opponents (as does initiating combat versus being "surprised"). Furthermore (like the fake move) party formation and "sensing" a monster also seems to effect initiative marginally (i.e. who sees the monster first has a slightly higher initiative).

It is of course in this logic to have Bless/Hasters first (although I'd say its important to have soul shield and element shield up first). Speed then is the attribute of choice and is the underlying element in initiative coupled with weapons initiative or spell type, spell level, and spell power. Furthermore when looking at an alchemist who will dual to a bard and have speed as the primary attribute, (to beat-out high initiative monsters), to unlock snakespeed (and further your ability here) - two choices pop-up. Faeries simply have the best speed attribute (especially for unlocking snakespeed the fastest), Felpurrs run a modest second. But we need to look further of course: Faeries have pitiful starting attributes in strength and vitality whereas Felpurrs are better in both (more so in strength). Because a bard can also be a melee'er or a ranged fighter they will need both attributes - particularly strength. Additionally of course there are several nice armours available early on that only a non-faerie bard can wear.

On a different note.

I think el_Kalkylus has nicely highlighted why pure hybrids are weak. Of course the solution to overcoming ZarahNeader's problem is dual to a magic related hybrid later in the game for different weapons choices and armor capability (or course he could always go the rouge/stealth route).