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Old 09-21-2003, 08:34 AM   #21
Zero Alpha
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Join Date: July 15, 2002
Location: London, England
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zuvio:

I don't believe this mod should *ever* be allowed.

*snip*
This mod should be banned for the obvious reasons.
I thought americans had the right to a freedom of speech. you cannot ban something that is free, without being opressive.

Quote:
Shaggy Wrote:
I think its sad that someones always ready to cash in on someone else's misfortunes, says alot for us as a race dosent it.
mod makers dont charge. I have no idea how you think you can level the 'cash in' argument against a free mod.

IMHO, this could insult many people if they choose to take it personaly. these same people could also just not play it and not complain. i dont see why anyone who may be offened by it is 'forced' to download and play it. in short, if you dont like it, dont play it.
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Old 09-21-2003, 10:02 AM   #22
Sigmar
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Join Date: May 17, 2001
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Quote:
Originally posted by Zero Alpha:
quote:
Originally posted by Zuvio:

I don't believe this mod should *ever* be allowed.

*snip*
This mod should be banned for the obvious reasons.
I thought americans had the right to a freedom of speech. you cannot ban something that is free, without being opressive.

Quote:
Shaggy Wrote:
I think its sad that someones always ready to cash in on someone else's misfortunes, says alot for us as a race dosent it.
mod makers dont charge. I have no idea how you think you can level the 'cash in' argument against a free mod.

IMHO, this could insult many people if they choose to take it personaly. these same people could also just not play it and not complain. i dont see why anyone who may be offened by it is 'forced' to download and play it. in short, if you dont like it, dont play it.
[/QUOTE]Mods can become consumer products in their own right, (again see "Counter-strike"), but you are right I suppose the cash-in argument doesn't really apply here.


As for the "don't like it, don't play" it suggestion. What if you knew of the existance of an illegal and amoral website on the 'net that violated moral and legal standards. Sure, you may never access the said site but wouldn't its existance annoy and yes, even offend you? Admittedly this isn't the same situation but I can see why those deeply affected by 9-11 would not like this mod to exist ANYWHERE, or distributed despite the fact it is free. The same reason why those against the illegal/amoral sites would not like them to exist.

Sure it's down to personal opinion I suppose, but people have to be aware of the boundaries of taste. However you paint it, this is in bad taste and as Barry the Sprout said way too early for those affected by the attacks. Perhaps later on a respectable homage (in the form of a game) can be created based on the events of 9-11. But this is not a respectable tribute, only offensive if anything IMO.

Thats my opinion.
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Old 09-21-2003, 08:37 PM   #23
Tancred
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Join Date: April 1, 2001
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This is amazing.

What unsettles me here is the thought that someone sat down and thought this up - either in a moment of inspiration ("I know! I'll do THIS") or from planning ("Hmm... of all my ideas, this one is the best"). They then sat down and carefully coded it, constructed it, playtested it and then released it for general consumption.

They may have agonised over it day after day, weighing up the moral implications of what they were refering to, eventually deciding that the mod should go ahead; or they just went ahead and did it with no thoughts on a moral level at all, or any scenario in between. But they still did it.

That's either an act of supreme force of will, of total, idiotic blindness, or of both. Like I say, I'm amazed this was done.

I daresay in a week or so, once the details have sunk in, I'll feel focused enough to be appalled. But until then, I remain gobsmacked.

As for freedom of speech... bah. You may hold an opinion and be extremely vocal about it, but then *I* have the freedom to tell you to take your opinion and stuff it, for example. However, I do not... I know that would hurt your feelings and make you angry. This discussion should not be about freedom of speech. This discussion should be about human understanding, possibly even human empathy... or, conversely, the lack of it.
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Old 09-21-2003, 11:20 PM   #24
Luvian
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Join Date: June 27, 2001
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sigmar:


As for the "don't like it, don't play" it suggestion. What if you knew of the existance of an illegal and amoral website on the 'net that violated moral and legal standards. Sure, you may never access the said site but wouldn't its existance annoy and yes, even offend you? Admittedly this isn't the same situation but I can see why those deeply affected by 9-11 would not like this mod to exist ANYWHERE, or distributed despite the fact it is free. The same reason why those against the illegal/amoral sites would not like them to exist.

Well... that mod is not illegal, and there are plenty of amoral websites on the net. But yes, that mod is in bad taste.

I think it wouldn't be so offensive if the mod maker had focused on the survivors and didn't add that part where some players have to die. It might have been a nice homage if it was a game about the survivors.
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Old 09-22-2003, 01:47 AM   #25
/)eathKiller
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Unreal tournament, you should know, has never kept with a tradition of being wholesome or right-winged in any sence. Rather, it's a way for Left-wingers to produce their own deep-willed destructive tendencies without having to vote republican. I guess you could look at it as a game which unites people of all walks of feeling and culture in a single violent environment. I am not suprised by this mod at all. I would just as easily be unsuprised by a UT2003 mod where the player was made into the hijackers, and that they could only score points by ramming the planes they hijac into the towers. With each generation of unreal tournament there comes a new wave of moders who will produce the games of tomorrow. But with an unlimited engien like the Karma engien there are unlimited possibilities. One of the most amazing parts of the UT2003 Karma engien is the realism which it applies to bodies when they jump and or fall. There also have been fun fire-effects. Someone looked at the concept of burning to death and jumping to ones death, saw this engien, and obviously figured that they would have enough free time on their hands to produce a simulator which would gain them alot of attention. It's like how I am working on a manga with a fight scene that results in the destruction of the Atlanta international airport. I simply see something with alot of potential, and, through fiction, I produce something which isn't meant to be enjoyed or dispised, but to be something which exists. Why else do you tihnk we have art? When I look at this mod for UT2003 I see someone who just wants to express free speech, nothing more.
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Old 09-22-2003, 01:50 AM   #26
Luvian
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Quote:
Originally posted by /)eathKiller:
Unreal tournament, you should know, has never kept with a tradition of being wholesome or right-winged in any sence. Rather, it's a way for Left-wingers to produce their own deep-willed destructive tendencies without having to vote republican. I guess you could look at it as a game which unites people of all walks of feeling and culture in a single violent environment. I am not suprised by this mod at all. I would just as easily be unsuprised by a UT2003 mod where the player was made into the hijackers, and that they could only score points by ramming the planes they hijac into the towers. With each generation of unreal tournament there comes a new wave of moders who will produce the games of tomorrow. But with an unlimited engien like the Karma engien there are unlimited possibilities. One of the most amazing parts of the UT2003 Karma engien is the realism which it applies to bodies when they jump and or fall. There also have been fun fire-effects. Someone looked at the concept of burning to death and jumping to ones death, saw this engien, and obviously figured that they would have enough free time on their hands to produce a simulator which would gain them alot of attention. It's like how I am working on a manga with a fight scene that results in the destruction of the Atlanta international airport. I simply see something with alot of potential, and, through fiction, I produce something which isn't meant to be enjoyed or dispised, but to be something which exists. Why else do you tihnk we have art? When I look at this mod for UT2003 I see someone who just wants to express free speech, nothing more.
Whoa... I thought it was just an fps...
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Old 09-22-2003, 11:31 AM   #27
Deejax
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Join Date: November 15, 2002
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This mod is just timed very badly. I don't think it would raise much protest in 2040.

If you look at other games the same moral or ethical wrongs are made.

It is just because World War II is 60 years ago that we play a lot of WWII games. But a lot of innocent people died and not by accident. Cities were purposely bombed to demoralise the enemy.

Or consider nuclear bombs. I know there are games where the way to win is to nuke your opponents cities. Nice. You should have tried to sell that game in Japan in the 1950's.

It's just too soon for this game.
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Old 09-22-2003, 03:30 PM   #28
robertthebard
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I think it is in bad taste, but...What are we to do, tell people what to do, and what not to do? That system doesn't work very well, as a few former governments will tell you. My opinion? Very bad taste, and even if i played UT, I wouldn't play it. That's the best way to deal with this kind of thing, just ignore it, and hope it goes away. It's not going to affect me, one way or the other if some one else likes it or not. If it doesn't get a lot of response, then it will go away, just like the original Nintendo console, or the Atari. Any one remember those?
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Old 09-22-2003, 06:52 PM   #29
Zero Alpha
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im still supprised at the major negative reaction when, get this the mod isn't even out yet. they havent even released a beta. im personlly goint to wait + try it before i condemn somones art.

here is the homepage:
http://www.kinematic.org/911.html

as you can see there is no download link on the site.
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Old 09-22-2003, 08:59 PM   #30
Tancred
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Join Date: April 1, 2001
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Since when did this become someone's 'art'?!? This is the first time I've ever heard a computer game mod referred to as such. You cannot use 'art' as a catch-all excuse to avoid moral responsibility!
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