"Causa Belli"

[*\Conan/*]

They read good books, and quote, but never learn

A language other than the scream of rocket-burn

Our straighter talk is drowned but ironclad:

elections, money, empire, oil, and Dad.

-Andrew Motion-

[Djinn Raffo]

Cause For War!

Yep the WoMD ship is starting to sink in Iraq. I watched some cbc newsworld last night and Peter Mansbridge was talking about the division between Jack Straw and Blair.. Not a division really but both of them saying different things... That the British opposition was talking about: if Blairs own cabinet differs on going to war.. how are they going to convince the rest of the country that it is necessary.

Well the weapons inspectors have not found anything and Iraq hasn't declared anything. Bush administration for awhile their was saying they had proof of sites and all from inteligence sources and that that information would be given to the inspectors.. it never was given to the inspectors and i havent heard mention of that proof in a couple weeks...

[Melusine]

Great quote from the British Poet Laureate, Conan! [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

[Ronn_Bman]

The press conference I saw yesterday with the weapons inspectors outside the UN did say there were inconsistances and huge gaps in what the Iraqi's have reported. They went on to say that while they were far from finished, the Iraqi's had been less than forth coming.

[Ronn_Bman]

I found this interesting...

Originally reported by MSNBC Saddam’s regime still has not adequately explained what happened to the weapons that defectors have claimed Iraq possessed. Measuring Iraq’s accounting of its weaponry to the U.N. against information from those defectors indicates Saddam has destroyed less than a tenth of his missile-production capability. His claims about field trials of chemical and biological weapons involving R400 bombs have certainly raised eyebrows. Taken at face value, they would mean Iraq destroyed more munitions in tests than it has admitted producing. TANGLED TALE According to an analysis by Anthony Cordesman of the Center for Strategic & International Studies, Iraq hasn’t accounted for 200 metric tons each of deadly VX gas, sarin, and mustard gas. Nor has Baghdad accounted for a huge number of delivery systems: up to 70 Al-Husayns [modified Scud missiles], as many as 25,000 rockets, 2,000 aerial bombs, and 15,000 artillery shells. Weapons inspectors discovered a document that showed Iraq did not use as many chemical munitions during the Iran-Iraq war as Baghdad had claimed, according to a CIA report. That raised the possibility of 6,000 hidden chemical weapons. What about biological weapons? According to the Cordesman study, Iraq declared that it produced about 23,000 gallons of anthrax, but U.N. weapons inspectors believe the actual figure was three or four times that amount. Similarly, Iraq declared 100,000 gallons of botulinum toxin, but inspectors think the figure could be twice as much. NUKE QUESTIONS With Iraq unable to get its story straight about just how much aflatoxin it produced, those figures are suspect, too. Nearly 8,000 pounds of growth media for biological weapons also remain unaccounted for. British intelligence believes that personnel associated with Iraq’s bioweapons program have started production in hard-to-find mobile labs. Similarly, Saddam is known to have tried to acquire uranium from Africa, even though he has no nuclear reactors for civilian energy, according to British intelligence. He has attempted to buy everything from vacuum pumps to specialized aluminum tubes that are useful for making gas centrifuges, which can be used to process natural uranium into weapons-grade uranium. And Iraq never turned over its two completed designs for a nuclear bomb or components such as explosive lenses and neutron initiators, according to Steven D. Dolley, research director of the Nuclear Control Institute in Washington, D.C. The British also say Iraq has started to deploy its al-Samoud liquid-propellant missile and to produce a solid-propellant Ababil-100 missile, both of which are have a range of at least 200 kilometers, in violation of the 150-kilometer limit the U.N. imposed on Iraq. British intelligence also believes that Iraq illegally retained as many as 20 al-Hussein missiles, whose range is 650 kilometers. And Baghdad is also trying to develop missiles capable of reaching not just Israel, but Greece, Turkey, and the British base on Cyprus, the Brits believe.

Especially telling is the claim by Saddam that during field testing they destroyed more munitions than they claim to have produced.

And the excuses are summed up nicely by the final sentence in this excerpt.

CLOUDING THE ISSUE Iraq came up with all sorts of explanations for its inability to provide adequate documentation to the U.N.: Papers were destroyed during allied bombing. They fell off trucks. They were burned in fires. Everything but the dog ate them.

[ 01-10-2003, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: Ronn_Bman ]

[johnny]

Exactly, and they're covering up more than poems can buy.

Originally posted by Djinn Raffo: Cause For War! Yep the WoMD ship is starting to sink in Iraq. I watched some cbc newsworld last night and Peter Mansbridge was talking about the division between Jack Straw and Blair.. Not a division really but both of them saying different things... That the British opposition was talking about: if Blairs own cabinet differs on going to war.. how are they going to convince the rest of the country that it is necessary. Well the weapons inspectors have not found anything and Iraq hasn't declared anything. Bush administration for awhile their was saying they had proof of sites and all from inteligence sources and that that information would be given to the inspectors.. it never was given to the inspectors and i havent heard mention of that proof in a couple weeks...

Keep believeing Mr. Blix.(sp?) The Inspectors admit that they have found nothing but that Iraq is not co-operating, they are obfuscating and delaying, they are covering and evading. Djin, I do believe you are trusting the wrong person in this...you should distrust ANYTHING Saddam says just on principle alone.

[Iron_Ranger]

Well from what I can gather, of course I am not basing thins on facts..Blix doenst have a very good track recored of finding WoMD. Of course he is not doing it all by his lonesome. But he is the dierector of it isnt he? Just like Bush wasnt actually searching for OBL but he still seems to get the blame, but thats another topic completeley.

[Djinn Raffo]

Originally posted by MagiK: quote: Originally posted by Djinn Raffo: Cause For War! Yep the WoMD ship is starting to sink in Iraq. I watched some cbc newsworld last night and Peter Mansbridge was talking about the division between Jack Straw and Blair.. Not a division really but both of them saying different things... That the British opposition was talking about: if Blairs own cabinet differs on going to war.. how are they going to convince the rest of the country that it is necessary. Well the weapons inspectors have not found anything and Iraq hasn't declared anything. Bush administration for awhile their was saying they had proof of sites and all from inteligence sources and that that information would be given to the inspectors.. it never was given to the inspectors and i havent heard mention of that proof in a couple weeks...

Keep believeing Mr. Blix.(sp?) The Inspectors admit that they have found nothing but that Iraq is not co-operating, they are obfuscating and delaying, they are covering and evading. Djin, I do believe you are trusting the wrong person in this...you should distrust ANYTHING Saddam says just on principle alone. [/QUOTE]It's true. Blix has acknowledged unsatisfying errors in the Iraqi report. (hit control-f and search for 'smoking gun' to read detail about blix's take.. sounds like US is grooming ElBaradei to take Blix's place.)

Everybody here: I have no doubt that Saddam Hussein is a criminal and should be tried in a court of international law and undisputedly face a gratifying penalty in a internationally sponsored prison. I feel the same way about Henry Kissenger though.. go figure..

And you know i really do wonder who to trust at times like you mention.. and then i realize.. i don't trust anyone.. And you do not mention who the right or wrong people to trust are in your post? Well you know who i trust.. i trust myself.. and my feelings.. I trust my friends and my friends are all countrymen and they all have their friends to and i'm sure they all trust them. I sure as hell can't trust my province's politicians though:
Gordon Campbell arrested for DUI in Maui.

Well you know my feelings tell me that war is doom. Period. That's it no debate. Find another course. You cannot convince me otherwise. And Lord of the Ring's movies are strengthening this resolve.

And their is this devil's advocate of Mass Destruction.. the end of the world.. dictator warlord whose obsession is to conquer the middle east and then subdue the rest of the world to her new masters destiny.. Aggression! Look another warlord rises in the east. And i wonder if aggression just begets aggression and it's just so kind of loop like hasn't this already happened a thousand times in history already? Who cares.. Is Axis of Evil affecting my life? Certainly not enough to go to war over... I don't even have a car what the hell do i care about the price of petroleum (wait a minute all this plastic is petroleum based right.. oh no! i work in the tech industry and all this computer is made of plastic oil based monitor shell and linoleum floor oh no i am a part of it) and living off of it! Oh they might launch their nukes at us (which they may or may not have and guess what you do have and the Indians have and the French have and the Chinese and the Pakistani's to, some others to. They might launch em... who? The ones who have them... or the ones who don't?

But they didn't (at least except for twice) launch them and that is due to some stand up people.

You know i have nothing but respect for loyalty. One of my favorite things is reading about Japanese Samurai. It's almost a hobby! Bushido and the path of the warrior. Fealty to one's Lord, that kind of thing. The unbelievable amazement i feel when i play Shogun Total War and brim with pride when my cavalry archers rain sweet death down upon those accursed buddhists! Those archers are my brothers i daydream!

I have no doubt in my mind that the American military is helping to protect my way of life and prevent a confrontation that would alter that way of life and not only that military but those who serve in Canada, those who serve in NATO and those who serve in all military's of the west. The west!!?? Not just the east!!!?? Yes.. i can respect a soldier from any background. This respect for the honour and necessity of military presence does not impede another belief i have: in CHANGE. You cannot prevent it.

I guess that people everywhere are different. And to think that in all the population.. that their are only six or seven leaders who are deciding the fate of the world.. deciding the directions to guide the armies of the world. The civilizations of the world. I would like to find a middle east civ 3 mod..

It is such ridiculous fear mongering from everyside that i just have to scoff at it.. war.. i read it sucked.. didn't you? No.. I saw the movie though..

[ 01-11-2003, 04:30 AM: Message edited by: Djinn Raffo ]

Just for the record, I think Hans Blix is just a butt kissin toady for the UN and doesnt really want to find anything, but even he can't ignore or cover up what is really going on over there since theother inspectors would likely speak out.

On the other hand, Im sure Mr. Blix would findme to be a stuck up american with gosh manners and no social graces.