Visit the Ironworks Gaming Website Email the Webmaster Graphics Library Rules and Regulations Help Support Ironworks Forum with a Donation to Keep us Online - We rely totally on Donations from members Donation goal Meter

Ironworks Gaming Radio

Ironworks Gaming Forum

Go Back   Ironworks Gaming Forum > Ironworks Gaming Forums > General Discussion > General Conversation Archives (11/2000 - 01/2005)

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 05-18-2002, 05:03 PM   #31
Scholarcs
Red Dragon
 

Join Date: December 5, 2001
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Age: 31
Posts: 1,557
Quote:
Originally posted by Epona:
Sorry Scholarcs, I have to take issue with that. Self defence is NOT murder. It is self defence. There is a whole world of difference. Murder is by definition a pre-meditated killing. In the UK if you killed someone in self defence you would be unlikely to be charged with murder, but the lesser charge of manslaughter. And you'd be likely let off if you could prove it was self defence - most self defence cases get bail while awaiting trial, which would never be granted for a murder suspect.

If it's a choice between kill and be killed, I'd kill thank you very much. No question.
I wouldnt.

and in NZ, murder cases would get bail too. It is the failing system.
__________________
<br />\"A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five\" - Groucho Marx<br />Member of the ORT Clan. <br />\"Some birds are not meant to be caged because their feathers are too bright\"<br />Ma bouche sera la bouche des malheurs qui n\'ont point de bouche, ma voix, la liberté de celles qui s\'affaissent au cachot du désespoir. - Aimé Césaire<br />La plus perdue de toutes les journées est celle où l\'on n\'a pas ri. - Sébastien Roch Nicolas
Scholarcs is offline  
Old 05-18-2002, 05:14 PM   #32
Epona
Zartan
 

Join Date: March 1, 2001
Location: London, England
Age: 46
Posts: 5,162
Quote:
Originally posted by Scholarcs:
quote:
Originally posted by Epona:
Sorry Scholarcs, I have to take issue with that. Self defence is NOT murder. It is self defence. There is a whole world of difference. Murder is by definition a pre-meditated killing. In the UK if you killed someone in self defence you would be unlikely to be charged with murder, but the lesser charge of manslaughter. And you'd be likely let off if you could prove it was self defence - most self defence cases get bail while awaiting trial, which would never be granted for a murder suspect.

If it's a choice between kill and be killed, I'd kill thank you very much. No question.
I wouldnt.

and in NZ, murder cases would get bail too. It is the failing system.
[/QUOTE]But do you think that people who kill in self defense should be treated the same as a serial killer? That's just plain wrong. Having been in a situation where I had to fight when cornered, why should I go to jail if I'd killed the mofo? Not right at all.
__________________
[img]\"http://www.wizardrealm.com/images/epona.gif\" alt=\" - \" />
Epona is offline  
Old 05-18-2002, 05:29 PM   #33
Scholarcs
Red Dragon
 

Join Date: December 5, 2001
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Age: 31
Posts: 1,557
Quote:
Originally posted by Epona:
But do you think that people who kill in self defense should be treated the same as a serial killer? That's just plain wrong. Having been in a situation where I had to fight when cornered, why should I go to jail if I'd killed the mofo? Not right at all.
No you shouldn't, because you are essentially a good person.

Anyway i dont ask you to change your morals, mine are what mine are.
__________________
<br />\"A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five\" - Groucho Marx<br />Member of the ORT Clan. <br />\"Some birds are not meant to be caged because their feathers are too bright\"<br />Ma bouche sera la bouche des malheurs qui n\'ont point de bouche, ma voix, la liberté de celles qui s\'affaissent au cachot du désespoir. - Aimé Césaire<br />La plus perdue de toutes les journées est celle où l\'on n\'a pas ri. - Sébastien Roch Nicolas
Scholarcs is offline  
Old 05-18-2002, 07:21 PM   #34
andrewas
Harper
 

Join Date: October 2, 2001
Location: Aberdeen, Scotland
Age: 35
Posts: 4,774
Quote:
Originally posted by Scholarcs:
quote:
Originally posted by andrewas:
Youd rather die than kill another? Fair enough. What about your family though?
I dont know about my family. I cannot speak for them.[/QUOTE]What I actualy meant was - would you rather have a family member die, than kill to protect them?

I know that I would rather kill someone than lose a family member, and I think I would rather kill than be killed.
__________________
[img]\"http://www.sighost.us/members/Zvijer/andrewas.gif\" alt=\" - \" />
andrewas is offline  
Old 05-18-2002, 07:51 PM   #35
Ladyzekke
Ironworks Atomic Moderator
 

Join Date: January 7, 2001
Location: Virginia, U.S.A.
Age: 50
Posts: 9,002
I don't own a gun, but if I ever felt unsafe I would get one, simple as that. I only have ONE life, and I will defend my ONE life as much as I am able to. For any human to try to take away my ONE life, is wrong and evil, and I would not spare his life and forfeit mine, no way!
__________________


Reality Show Recaps
Ladyzekke is offline  
Old 05-18-2002, 08:30 PM   #36
MagiK
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally posted by andrewas:
quote:
Originally posted by Scholarcs:
quote:
Originally posted by andrewas:
Youd rather die than kill another? Fair enough. What about your family though?
I dont know about my family. I cannot speak for them.[/QUOTE]What I actualy meant was - would you rather have a family member die, than kill to protect them?

I know that I would rather kill someone than lose a family member, and I think I would rather kill than be killed.
[/QUOTE]In general despite any protests to the contrary most people will fight to save their life, no one willingly just lays their head down on the chopping block. It is easy for people sitting comfy at home to speculate on how they will react to these types of situation. Fortunately for most people, they never actually have to face that moment of truth, wether to let a loved one die or to kill defending them....or at least attempt to kill.

A lot of hot debate rages in the USA about deaths caused by guns in the USA, unfortunatley the Anti-gun lobbyists more often than not just list any death caused by a firearm (wether in self defense, murder, law enforcement, criminal act or accident) and cite that as a horrific statistic. What no one but the right winger NRA fanatics remember to point out is that with over 400million firewarms legally owned in the USA alone that the percentage of firearms used to commit crimes is very very minute. Making it impossible for law abiding citizens will in no way deter criminals from obtaining them and useing them in crimes, roughly 90% of the people who commit a crime with a firearm are already illegally in possesion of that firearm...and some one posted that something like 67% of all murders in the USA are comitted with a firearm...so by that I assume that almost half of all murders don't involve a firearm....I think if we enforce the laws we have and make the penalties for the crimes involving weapons of any sort horrific we would accomplish a whole lot more....so much for me not making a debate about this.....sorry just wanted to put some of the thoughts I have had while reading this thread... Thank everyone who has voted, I hope we get more votes wethere for or against with or without a post to accompany it.
 
Old 05-19-2002, 01:15 AM   #37
Scholarcs
Red Dragon
 

Join Date: December 5, 2001
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
Age: 31
Posts: 1,557
Quote:
Originally posted by ladyzekke:
I don't own a gun, but if I ever felt unsafe I would get one, simple as that. I only have ONE life, and I will defend my ONE life as much as I am able to. For any human to try to take away my ONE life, is wrong and evil, and I would not spare his life and forfeit mine, no way!
Thats where we differ.
Well i dont own my life, God does.
__________________
<br />\"A child of five would understand this. Send someone to fetch a child of five\" - Groucho Marx<br />Member of the ORT Clan. <br />\"Some birds are not meant to be caged because their feathers are too bright\"<br />Ma bouche sera la bouche des malheurs qui n\'ont point de bouche, ma voix, la liberté de celles qui s\'affaissent au cachot du désespoir. - Aimé Césaire<br />La plus perdue de toutes les journées est celle où l\'on n\'a pas ri. - Sébastien Roch Nicolas
Scholarcs is offline  
Old 05-19-2002, 02:05 AM   #38
Memnoch
Ironworks Moderator
 

Join Date: February 28, 2001
Location: Boston/Sydney
Posts: 11,759
Quote:
Originally posted by Scholarcs:
and dont give me any crap about how you need to defend yourselves, if you shoot someone you have murdered them, be it in self-defence or not.
[/QB]
Let me just try and clarify this statement, Scholarcs...killing in self-defence and murder is NOT the same thing.

Murder is the unlawful killing of one human by another, especially with premeditated malice.

Manslaughter is he unlawful killing of a man, either in negligence or incidentally to the commission of some unlawful act, but without specific malice, or upon a sudden excitement of anger.

Self-defence is the right to protect oneself against violence or threatened violence with whatever force or means are reasonably necessary.

Self-defence and manslaughter can sometimes be the same thing, but self-defence and murder can never be the same thing.

Maybe your last sentence should have read "once you shoot someone you have KILLED them, whether in self-defence or not."

I understand your strong feelings towards this issue - NZ and Australia as a whole have similar feelings towards guns in that the average citizen believes they should be restricted to a) law enforcement officers; and b) people for whom it is a lawful tool of trade (eg farmers, hunters, etc). Mace or capsicum spray isn't even legally available here. Probably because our crime rate is still quite low compared to some other countries - but I think you will find that as this increases, and home invasions, muggings, bag snatchings, etc increase, the average Joe Bloggs on the street will turn more to his own devices to protect himself and his own, rather than relying on the law.

This is probably already happening in Australian suburbs such as Cabramatta and Punchbowl, which are hotbeds of gang activity - but I would hope that the day that I feel I need to have a gun in my pocket to feel safe is still a long way away.
__________________


Memnoch is offline  
Old 05-19-2002, 02:31 AM   #39
Glorfindel
Ma'at - Goddess of Truth & Justice
 

Join Date: January 9, 2002
Location: Mt. Gambier, Australia
Age: 30
Posts: 3,337
I think that they should be because it would just make things alot easier [img]smile.gif[/img]
Glorfindel is offline  
Old 05-19-2002, 02:35 AM   #40
Glorfindel
Ma'at - Goddess of Truth & Justice
 

Join Date: January 9, 2002
Location: Mt. Gambier, Australia
Age: 30
Posts: 3,337
Quote:
Originally posted by Memnoch:

I would hope that the day that I feel I need to have a gun in my pocket to feel safe is still a long way away.
I hope that day never comes
Glorfindel is offline  
 


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
kotor guns Rokc Cadarn Miscellaneous Games (RPG or not) 6 09-01-2004 08:18 AM
About modern guns Bozos of Bones General Discussion 11 08-29-2003 11:10 AM
Do ya like guns??? Larry_OHF General Conversation Archives (11/2000 - 01/2005) 126 02-12-2003 09:21 AM
Guns ??? Bad Mr. Frosty General Conversation Archives (11/2000 - 01/2005) 6 05-29-2002 06:25 AM
Guns 2 Ar-Cunin General Conversation Archives (11/2000 - 01/2005) 5 05-27-2002 10:49 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:46 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
©2017 Ironworks Gaming TM & The Great Escape Studios - All Rights Reserved