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Old 10-31-2001, 02:10 AM   #31
Sir Real
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Join Date: October 9, 2001
Posts: 72
Quote:
Originally posted by Prime2U:

I am sorry you cannot understand what descent with modification means. I have no idea how I can debate the various views on evolution with you until you at least understand what natural selection is all about. If you want context, then very well I will oblige:
I'll even use your own example. Gorilla goes into desert and dies. Another less hairy one goes into the desert and survives. The offspring have less hair. This descendant has been modified to increase survivability.

Why did you pluck a link from the air and then tell me it would shed light on the topic?

If humans vary 1.5% from each other, and apes and humans vary around 1.5% from each other, and yet there are many very obvious differences between humans and apes, then how does fossil record DNA similarity between us and any primate have any value at all whatsoever?

I do not need to give you evidence supporting something besides what you call evolution. All I need to do if point out that that hypothesis is obviously unproven, and shows some flaws, and look to the alternative. Creation was never put forward by a scientist, it's been around as long as humans have. I have never seen one iota of evidence to disprove it. I am confident that I never will. I will accept it based on faith, as it was meant to be accepted.

Point one: you gave a exmaple not context, context is with the words that came before it and after it. Example: out of context: All people under 6'ft are dumb.
In context: It would be like saying that all people under 6'ft are dumb which is just not true.
Oh that also sands like Natural selection to me, less hairy gorilla goes on, so are you amitting that they go had in hand then?

Because we do not use the fossil record DNA of the primates we use the fossil record of those HUMANS that exists before our kind and Seek the geneos that exist only in humans, which are responable for the difference (Oh my 1.5% is the difference between humans, while yours is the diffence between spieces, which I sure is different.)

Creation was tought by scienceist until Evolution was discovered so you are wrong their, and it has not exists scince the beings of humans because Humans have not always had religion.

Well I don't believe in Creation because I story is so flawed as Every religion as a drifent one, Heck cristanity as two is self.
So What is thier to believe? As without evidence I could ssy that BOLGALOT from the planet Ipyournostrol craped on earth and molded the piceces into all life as we know it.

Okay its offical we all made from crap by BOLGALOT from Upyournostil and that how life started

Oh you also don't need evidence to prove you Belief but punch holes in this one? What right do you have then to say anything, I backing up what science tells us, you are just forcing your belief.

Oh the link shelds light on Evolution so I thing it revealent.

[This message has been edited by Sir Real (edited 10-31-2001).]
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Old 10-31-2001, 02:21 AM   #32
Prime2U
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Quote:
Originally posted by John D Harris:
:

Prime2U, Interesting points, personally I don't have a problem with evolution, I don't know how God did it all I know is that He did. IMHO the Genesis story is writen in a way that nomadic shepards could understand (grasp the concept of creation). Take the use of the terms "there was evening and there was morning" it strikes me as odd to assume that an infinite God (not bound by time) would use those types of terms for anything other than to show that there was a passage of time. Rememeber since God is not bound by time what is a day to Him? A billion years? or even a few trillion years? Even now with all of our combined intellect and computing power we still can not get any closer to the time after the big bang than 1 to the 43 power of a second. (National Geographic October 1999). IMHO I find it hard to believe that God would reveal to a bunch of shepards exactly how He did it. Do we even need to know exactly how God created everthing? You start talking about sub-atomic particals (sp?)
and quatum phsyics and my head starts to hurt .
Since you are a scientist I got one for you, who knows maybe it'll get you the Nobel prize for phsyics .(if it does I want a small cut of the prize money) "Time" is the unifying force that the Quatum Phsyicsist have been looking for, not "time/space" but rather "Time". With out time you have no space, distance, movement, velocity, no orbit of atomic particals, or vibrations of sub-atomic particals. We see it as time/space because from our finite point of view we see speed as "time to travel a distance" or amount of distance traveled in a set amount of time. We don't see that it is time that limits us not speed, distance, or any of the other "3" dimensions.
How's that for a monkey wrench?

Yup John, all things I've thought about as well. I agree that a big bang was possible. I don't agree that it was a totally random thing. There had to be something that ordered it to make it have such a perfect structure. I also disagree with another point in current evolutionary views. God spoke a word to create the beasts. But man he molded from clay in His own image and breathed life into. So we did not come from a monkey.

Hmmm, time. I think when we go one to heaven and understand a lot more than now, we will be able to manipulate time however we want to. It'll be nice for instant travel to anywhere hehe. it's entirely possible that time has been self imposed on the human race, because we would go insane if events could not be separated. Cheers!

[This message has been edited by Prime2U (edited 10-31-2001).]
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Old 10-31-2001, 02:34 AM   #33
Prime2U
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sir Real:
Point one: you gave a exmaple not context, context is with the words that came before it and after it. Example: out of context: All people under 6'ft are dumb.
In context: It would be like saying that all people under 6'ft are dumb which is just not true.
Oh that also sands like Natural selection to me, less hairy gorilla goes on, so are you amitting that they go had in hand then?


Because we do not use the fossil record DNA of the primates we use the fossil record of those HUMANS that exists before our kind and Seek the geneos that exist only in humans, which are responable for the difference (Oh my 1.5% is the difference between humans, while yours is the diffence between spieces, which I sure is different.)


Creation was tought by scienceist until Evolution was discovered so you r wrong their, and it has not exists scince the beings of humans because Humans have not always had religion.


Well I don't believe in Creation because I story is so flawed as Every religion as a drifent one, Heck cristanity as two is self.
So What is thier to believe? As without evidence I could as that BOLGALOT from the planet Ipyournostrol craped on earth and molded the piceces into all life as we know it.


Okay its offical we all made from crap by BOLGALOT from Upyournostil and that how life started

Oh you also don't need evidence to prove you Belief but punch holes in this one? What right do you have then to say anything, I backing up what science tells us, you are just forcing your belief.


Oh the link shelds light on Evolution so I thing it revealent.

oook, I gave an example so you would understand what I mean. I have no idea what you are trying to say there about gorillas and hands, but I was saying yes, that is natural selection, and true evolution. How do you know those ancient skeletons are of homo sapiens or another species of homo erectus? That is an assumption. Actually sorry, but Creation was understood and taught since the beginning of any recorded history. You cannot make any more guess than I whether it was taught before that, as we have no records to prove it. I'm not pushing my belief. I'm just pointing out that things you are saying as facts are not, they are just assumptions and speculations.

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Old 10-31-2001, 02:35 AM   #34
John D Harris
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Quote:
Originally posted by Prime2U:

Yup John, all things I've thought about as well. Except for one point. God spoke a word to create the beasts. But man he molded from clay in His own image and breathed life into. So we did not come from a monkey. Cheers!
Yea, then we have to get into a theological discusion about "Breathed Life Into" Like I said I don't know how and I'm not so sure I want to know. I have a hard enough time figuring out how to tie my shoes. Much less how an infinite God created a finite universe, from the finite point of view. Now I've went and done it my head hurts.



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Old 10-31-2001, 02:52 AM   #35
Sir Real
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Join Date: October 9, 2001
Posts: 72
Quote:
Originally posted by Prime2U:

oook, I gave an example so you would understand what I mean. I have no idea what you are trying to say there about gorillas and hands, but I was saying yes, that is natural selection, and true evolution. How do you know those ancient skeletons are of homo sapiens or another species of homo erectus? That is an assumption. Actually sorry, but Creation was understood and taught since the beginning of any recorded history. You cannot make any more guess than I whether it was taught before that, as we have no records to prove it. I'm not pushing my belief. I'm just pointing out that things you are saying as facts are not, they are just assumptions and speculations.

Homo-erectus IS THE FORE FATHER OF HOMO-SAPIENS the evoluved from them for peat sake! We Put them togeather we can use your knowalage of how the body works (were muslce connects to bone, and the signs of it etc) to see how they were built and therefore we know what they look like and can date them to times were on spieces start exist, and the other ends and as they share many charistics of the predesator we can assume that they follow suit and seeing as it unlike that an new form of life 'magical' appeared it fairly safe to do so.
And Creation (Seeing how you put a captial I take it you mean the cristain fable) had many forfather stories, from Greek to Mayian to freaking Jewish!!
Creation was there ideal of how we came into existance when they didn't the the knowalge we do. Some history don't even have any refance to gods, just the resent hunting trips (YES CAVE PAINTINGS ARE RECORDS OF HISTORY).
And All thing are Speclations by your word even God, for how when give evidence can you just say it a guess, yet say that some all powerful being made us with no evidence at all to be true? And if this God of your is true why did he create shuch evidence to say otherwise? (Oh you also seem assume that all evolutionist don't be god, Which I know not to be true.)

Oh and I leave you this puzzle, Are the geneists who ahve created new forms of plant life from genes of others gods as they molded and breathed life into them?
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Old 10-31-2001, 03:06 AM   #36
Prime2U
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Join Date: October 2, 2001
Location: Manhattan,KS USA
Posts: 316
Quote:
Originally posted by Sir Real:
Homo-erectus IS THE FORE FATHER OF HOMO-SAPIENS the evoluved from them for peat sake! We Put them togeather we can use your knowalage of how the body works (were muslce connects to bone, and the signs of it etc) to see how they were built and therefore we know what they look like and can date them to times were on spieces start exist, and the other ends and as they share many charistics of the predesator we can assume that they follow suit and seeing as it unlike that an new form of life 'magical' appeared it fairly safe to do so.
And Creation (Seeing how you put a captial I take it you mean the cristain fable) had many forfather stories, from Greek to Mayian to freaking Jewish!!
Creation was there ideal of how we came into existance when they didn't the the knowalge we do. Some history don't even have any refance to gods, just the resent hunting trips (YES CAVE PAINTINGS ARE RECORDS OF HISTORY).
And All thing are Speclations by your word even God, for how when give evidence can you just say it a guess, yet say that some all powerful being made us with no evidence at all to be true? And if this God of your is true why did he create shuch evidence to say otherwise? (Oh you also seem assume that all evolutionist don't be god, Which I know not to be true.)


Oh and I leave you this puzzle, Are the geneists who ahve created new forms of plant life from genes of others gods as they molded and breathed life into them?

Ummm... You are speculating again about the Homo erectus. Actually creation was taught before the time of the Jews, or the Greeks, so that's not a correct statement either... Cave paintings are generally considered prehistoric for some odd reason. Yes everything I believe is a speculation based on faith, you are correct. Howver everything you state in your more modern idea that is supposed to displace mine is also all speculation, and as such it cannot replace my belief, which takes precedence.
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Old 10-31-2001, 03:21 AM   #37
Sir Real
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Join Date: October 9, 2001
Posts: 72
Quote:
Originally posted by Prime2U:

Ummm... You are speculating again about the Homo erectus. Actually creation was taught before the time of the Jews, or the Greeks, so that's not a correct statement either... Cave paintings are generally considered prehistoric for some odd reason. Yes everything I believe is a speculation based on faith, you are correct. Howver everything you state in your more modern idea that is supposed to displace mine is also all speculation, and as such it cannot replace my belief, which takes precedence.
HA I got you, how can you claim that your speculation is true but what you claim to be mine (You present no evedince) isn't?
And what do you mean modern, the geneticst creating life, well they done it so are, in religious terams shouldn't they be considered gods? but how reason to say it wrong is that you religion got there first, that a laugh.
Prehistoric also applies neo-nolithic people but they had temples and existed aroung the same time as the mayans (Or one of that lot). In fact prehistory, if I recall, talks about any caulture that doesn't have a written record of it existance, mind you I not to sure about that, my minds slowing due to lack of sleep.
Hang on, I just noticed you enitre arument seems to be your speculation is right, becuase a might well of be a work of fiction with added historical notations to give it extra unmp agianst the speculation of nealry all of the science comuinty who have presented tonns of evidence to prove it or have corrected its mistakes to fit with a ever growing bases of Knowlage.
Hell you might as well say that gravity doesn't exist as it only a spection of what causes us to be attracted to the planets core when in fact is tiny invable fairys pushing us down sheees.
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Old 10-31-2001, 04:46 AM   #38
Liliara
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Join Date: August 17, 2001
Location: Florida
Posts: 874
Quote:
Originally posted by Sir Real:
[BAnd what do you mean modern, the geneticst creating life, well they done it so are, in religious terams shouldn't they be considered gods? B]
I may be behind in my science here. What life has been CREATED by genetiscists?

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Old 10-31-2001, 04:57 AM   #39
Prime2U
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Join Date: October 2, 2001
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sir Real:
HA I got you, how can you claim that your speculation is true but what you claim to be mine (You present no evedince) isn't?
And what do you mean modern, the geneticst creating life, well they done it so are, in religious terams shouldn't they be considered gods? but how reason to say it wrong is that you religion got there first, that a laugh.
Prehistoric also applies neo-nolithic people but they had temples and existed aroung the same time as the mayans (Or one of that lot). In fact prehistory, if I recall, talks about any caulture that doesn't have a written record of it existance, mind you I not to sure about that, my minds slowing due to lack of sleep.
Hang on, I just noticed you enitre arument seems to be your speculation is right, becuase a might well of be a work of fiction with added historical notations to give it extra unmp agianst the speculation of nealry all of the science comuinty who have presented tonns of evidence to prove it or have corrected its mistakes to fit with a ever growing bases of Knowlage.
Hell you might as well say that gravity doesn't exist as it only a spection of what causes us to be attracted to the planets core when in fact is tiny invable fairys pushing us down sheees.

As far as modern, I mean that the theory you support is trying to supplant on already in existance. Exactly what I said already. I'm not claiming mine is necessarily true. I believe it is, but you don't have to if you don't want to. I am saying that yours is, at this point, considered false, because at this point it has no proof to back it up, only speculation. And as it is put forth as a scientific theory, that makes it false. As a hypothesis, who knows, we'll just have to wait and see if it is true or not. But it is definitely not right now. No, when we divide blastocysts to create clones, and any other method of creating a clone or another species of plant, we are not a God in any sense of the word. We are, in actuality, playing with things that we really don't understand. I hope we never try such things with humans, as i fear it will lead to some drastic consequences. My reason to say evolution is wrong is not because creation was first, that is my reason to say creation is right. Because there is no proof that this new theory is correct. Until it can be proven correct, the old idea stands, and that idea is creation. You are correct, prehistoric means they had no written history. As such, we have no way of knowing what they believed. But once we start written history, we see that those people when that first writing began, believed in creation and a higher power of some sort.

I told you one reason why I believed in creation. It is the standing belief, and evolution has no proof, no foundation, to disprove it. Whether you believe the bible is true or not, the original scrolls are dated among the oldest of written history. And they talk of creation.

I cannot say that gravity does not exist, because there is plenty of repeatable proof and evidence to say that it does. It has gone beyong a theory and become a law. You version of evolution has yet to even become a theory.

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Old 10-31-2001, 05:09 AM   #40
Liliara
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I have a point for Sir Real: Yes I believe that all human life came from two humans that God placed on this planet. Hard to believe? Well, I find your reasoning hard to believe! All human life came from a rock! OK, that makes sense!

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