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Old 09-20-2001, 01:13 AM   #11
KHaN
Drow Warrior
 

Join Date: June 21, 2001
Location: the not to distant future,
Posts: 250
Quote:
Originally posted by Ryanamur:
The difference is simple: in an assassination you take out one well identified target, no co-lateral casulties. In a military strike, you end up with a non-confirmed kill and lots of co-lateral casulties (look at the 1998 attack on Bin Ladden's camp: women and children were killed but Bin Laden wasn't).
The purpose behind these new smart weapons is to minimize co-lateral damage. Some have the ability to be guided almost to the point of impact. I believe with proper training they can be more effective against this guy then a human assassin. I personally think they should deploy our special forces units.

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Old 09-20-2001, 01:21 AM   #12
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Horus - Egyptian Sky God
 

Join Date: March 4, 2001
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I hope we can one day lock down and target an ant from outter space...
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Old 09-20-2001, 02:28 AM   #13
Lemernis
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The reason for the agreement is also practical. Regardless of who is in power it becomes impossible for governments anywhere to operate effectively if they are all running around knocking off each other's leaders.

Keep in mind that Bin Laden is not a government leader but a terrorist. The U.S. has been trying to bring him to justice for some time, but they don't have to worry about simply capturing him now. My guess would be that now the intelligence community is able to use tactics that they were contrained from using before.

What role Saddam Hussein may have had in all of this may actually put this on the table.
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Old 09-20-2001, 04:01 AM   #14
Silver Cheetah
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Join Date: July 26, 2001
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Quote:
Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown:
The general feeling on assassination as a method of taking out terrorists and especially their leaders seems to be that it is somehow more immoral than more traditional methods, like waging war.

Diogones, you make some good points and I agree with much of what you say. But....

Assassination yes. I see the argument for it, and prefer it to other forms of attack which almost inevitably involve the slaughter of civilians, but I do see the problem as regards the creation of martyrs. (There is also the problem of replacing a 'known' quantity with an unknown quantity, when the person to be assassinated is a ruler. Or even if he isn't, come to that.)

Would it be too difficult to, rather than assassinate, to get an elite corps to get the person out, and then hold a (probably closed) legal trial? I would say this is something that we really do need to start looking at the level of the international community.

There seem to be oodles of tyrants and dictators around who wouldn't know what a human right was if it hit them slap in the face. These people, who not only are free to exploit, torture and kill their own people whenever it suits them, are also major loose cannon when it comes to threatening neighboring and other regions of the world. It is they, NOT their people, who need to be put out of action, but it is important that justice is seen to be done.

Of course, there is the problem of who replaces these people. Where the rightful or legally elected ruler or leader has been overthrown and is in prison, then that person could perhaps be put back - when this option doesn't exist - then what? Elections should be held, but very many countries do not have the system in place to do this. Otherwise, all that would happen is that one of the ruler's accolytes, possibly no better than he is, would take power. Another alternative is a bloody coup which would kill yet more civilians. (All this would require careful consideration by an international body.....)

There are large numbers of displaced people currently roaming around the world, traumatised by what they have undergone in their home countries. Others have not suffered directly, but have left before something happens to them. At this point, we HAVE to address the refugee problem, which is growing to astronomical proportions, and which is affecting all of us. It's a wakeup call if ever there was one. What better way to respond than for the international community to take steps which would allow people to feel and be safe in their own home countries?

I would like to see us take the first steps towards a peace keeping body WITH TEETH. The goal would be, eventually, to eliminate non human rights respecting regimes, and replace them with democratically elected leaders, or at the least, (in those parts of the world where democratic elections just would not be acceptable) leaders prepared to respect certain basic and fundamental human rights (including the right of women not to be treated as 'property' rather than individuals with rights.)

Another first step - and a crucial one - IS TO STOP SELLING ARMS TO DODGY REGIMES! This arms selling puts us in a crap position both morally and practically, and to my mind, is the result of stupid, profit driven short termism. We've been burnt by it many times and no doubt will be again.

I am against imposing full out sanctions against countries with dictator led regimes. That is a step to nowhere, and actually damages our cause. Arms sanctions certainly should be imposed, but not of food, medicines, and the other basic necessities of life. These just make the populace hungry, ill, and in no state to resist the blandishments and propoganda of their leaders, who then start blaming the West for all their ills. (The West has played its part, but let that go here, for now..... ) So let's impose arms sanctions and sanctions on other materials which are necessary to warfare and repression of peoples. (and let us make the penalties to companies and individuals breaking those sanctions PAINFUL AND CRIPPLING. Let us STOP them doing business, and put their chief executives in JAIL.)

In Britain, there are companies that sell torture instruments. Who are buying these things? Regimes around the world. This is SICK and this trade should be outlawed.

There are no easy answers, are there? But I think when we talk in terms of relations between the peoples of the world, the profit motive HAS to start coming second. Basic human rights HAVE to come first, every time. (Just to bring the profit motive into it - because as someone is bound to remark, you don't get nothing done without a dollar incentive - if we don't, then the results are going to COST us dearly, both in terms of money, and of our own freedom.


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[This message has been edited by Silver Cheetah (edited 09-20-2001).]
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Old 09-20-2001, 04:07 AM   #15
Ryanamur
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Join Date: March 29, 2001
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Quote:
Originally posted by KHaN:
The purpose behind these new smart weapons is to minimize co-lateral damage. Some have the ability to be guided almost to the point of impact. I believe with proper training they can be more effective against this guy then a human assassin. I personally think they should deploy our special forces units.

I do not doubt the ability of a smart weapon to be deliver within 15 feet of it's intended target. The problem with bomb is the explosion. They destroy what's around. People and evidence of people. With a bullet, you have confirmation that the guy is dead because the snipper sees his head being blown appart. With bomb, you don't have that certitude. Also, given the terrain in Afghanistan, it's easy to be protected from bombs. You just need to dig yourself in and you're safe (unless they use nukes or neutrons).

So, assassination is by far much more cleaner and reliable than smart weaponry. Of course, it all depends on the objective. If we are taking about an entire training camp, then yes, a bomb is more effective. However, if we are talking about one single individual that's well protected, use a scope mounted on a USSR made sniper riffle to do the job!

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Old 09-21-2001, 04:10 AM   #16
KHaN
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Join Date: June 21, 2001
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ryanamur:
I do not doubt the ability of a smart weapon to be deliver within 15 feet of it's intended target. The problem with bomb is the explosion. They destroy what's around. People and evidence of people. With a bullet, you have confirmation that the guy is dead because the snipper sees his head being blown appart. With bomb, you don't have that certitude. Also, given the terrain in Afghanistan, it's easy to be protected from bombs. You just need to dig yourself in and you're safe (unless they use nukes or neutrons).

So, assassination is by far much more cleaner and reliable than smart weaponry. Of course, it all depends on the objective. If we are taking about an entire training camp, then yes, a bomb is more effective. However, if we are talking about one single individual that's well protected, use a scope mounted on a USSR made sniper riffle to do the job!
Hmmm...I was thinking more of missile than bomb. They have two distinct deployment uses. Unless it is an ICBM lol. But with the use of LOS support (I worked with some of these guys in the Army, their job is extremely dangerous) for guided missiles one can take out an entire camp. Yeah I see your point, firing a missle at Binny's head could be called "overkill". But I think hes asked for it.

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"Heads are gonna roll..."



[This message has been edited by KHaN (edited 09-21-2001).]
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Old 09-21-2001, 12:02 PM   #17
Ryanamur
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Quote:
Originally posted by KHaN:
Hmmm...I was thinking more of missile than bomb. They have two distinct deployment uses. Unless it is an ICBM lol. But with the use of LOS support (I worked with some of these guys in the Army, their job is extremely dangerous) for guided missiles one can take out an entire camp. Yeah I see your point, firing a missle at Binny's head could be called "overkill". But I think hes asked for it.

Clinton tried the missile approach. It didn't really work that great did it?
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Old 09-21-2001, 02:00 PM   #18
Belecthor
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Join Date: July 16, 2001
Location: Atlanta, Ga, USA
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The only correction I would make is the myth about leaders "in the old days" leading from the front. Leaders who did this typically didn't live very long. Of the military leaders who I personally consider to be the Great Captains of history(Alexander, Hannibal, Caesar, Frederick, Gustavus Adolphus, Napoleon), NONE were so foolhardy as to lead from the front.

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Hedge Knight
"Crushing the skulls of morons, sycophants and other insipid evil-doers."
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Old 09-21-2001, 02:13 PM   #19
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Horus - Egyptian Sky God
 

Join Date: March 4, 2001
Location: either CA or MO
Age: 35
Posts: 2,674
someday, we gonna have a DNA nuclear bomb

the way it works is:

find the genetic code of that particular person's DNA, and the bomb only kills the person with that type of DNA...
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Old 09-21-2001, 02:18 PM   #20
MagiK
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Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown:
What a sad sort of leadership is that. In Olden days, a leader was expected to lead by example. To be the bravest and to put himself most at risk.

Now, our leaders hide behind armies of men, not taking personal risk for the decisions they are making which so profoundly affect the world and put us all in potential jeopardy.

From a purely economical perspective, assassination would seem to me to be one of the best ways to get Ben Laden (assuming the evidence shows he is guilty, etc)-- certainly having the advantage of reducing the risk to innocents to almost nil. Certainly better than a war.

Just some thoughts I wanted to throw into the forum
I think you may be mistaken about the olden days. Royalty did not lead from the front, they used "tasters" to check their food for poison...who would want that job? In the armies, peasents (masses) of peasents protected the Royals and Knights from the armies of the enemy, of course then knights were expected to fight each other.

I thinkk those in power have always been protected more than the common man since their death could have (in theory) a more damaging effect on the whole kingdom, state, country, whatever. Cowardly? to a point. Sensible? to a point.
new? not on your life.


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