Visit the Ironworks Gaming Website Email the Webmaster Graphics Library Rules and Regulations Help Support Ironworks Forum with a Donation to Keep us Online - We rely totally on Donations from members Donation goal Meter

Ironworks Gaming Radio

Ironworks Gaming Forum

Go Back   Ironworks Gaming Forum > Ironworks Gaming Forums > General Discussion > General Conversation Archives (11/2000 - 01/2005)

 
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 09-13-2001, 01:37 AM   #41
Diogenes Of Pumpkintown
Banned User
 

Join Date: August 9, 2001
Location: ...
Posts: 694
Moni, it is late and I am tired. Otherwise, I would answer you at much greater length.

For now I will just say that in all the examples you named, there were reasons of national self-interest behind each.

The US does not typically do anything at all on the international scene, unless it is in the national interest, the same as other countries. That is the historical and political reality.

The actions of the Red Cross and other private organizations clearly are not the same as actions of the US government. The government cannot take credit for such.

One major exception, a rare case where the US gov't and military intervened for truly noble reasons, was Kosovo. As it turns out, President Clinton and his government received tremendous criticism from other Americans for doing so. Apparently, the idea of risking US lives for purely noble objectives for once was quite objectionable to many Americans.
Diogenes Of Pumpkintown is offline  
Old 09-13-2001, 02:49 AM   #42
Liliara
Red Wizard of Thay
 

Join Date: August 17, 2001
Location: Florida
Posts: 874
Quote:
Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown:
I think it is patently obvious that most Americans seem to value American lives more than those of people of other countries.

It is patently obvious that most Americans care a good deal more about terrorist threats to the US than to other countries.

The same could probably be said of the attitudes of most other countries in the world. It is common to value the people closest to you more (and I mean this as much in personal and cultural senses as physical) than people further away.

I don't see any point in denying this basic truth.
Oh yes, I can see where what you are saying is true! After all, Americans have only died for American people. We have never died for anyone but our own countrymen. WHAT A JOKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!

While our troops were in foreign countries, dreaming of homeland and their families, the families left behind in America had to understand that our own freedom wasn't all that mattered! Do me a favor 'Dio' do your homework before you put down the Americans as being self centered! When was the last time you left YOUR family to go to another country to fight for their freedom? Just a question!

And Cloudy, please don't lump all Americans in your comments of us being more interested in sports than in world news. It IS there. If you are individually not interested, that's your choice.

------------------

Captain of Bouncers, Boogre Bar

LH Member

General Woundwort's body was never found. It could be that he still lives his fierce life somewhere else. But from that day forward, mothers would tell their kittens that if they were not good, the General would get them. Such was Woundwort's monument, and perhaps it would not have displeased him.

[This message has been edited by Liliara (edited 09-13-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Liliara (edited 09-13-2001).]
Liliara is offline  
Old 09-13-2001, 03:03 AM   #43
Liliara
Red Wizard of Thay
 

Join Date: August 17, 2001
Location: Florida
Posts: 874
To 'Dio' and anyone upset by these remarks....

I felt the need to post this from another thread....

Originally posted by KDogRex:


This was written in a Canadian Newspaper and honestly made me cry as I read it...mostly because what was written finally appears to be coming true...thank you to every person rfom abroad who has supported us in this horrific event. I will always remember you...
This, from a Canadian newspaper, no less, is worth sharing.
> >
> >
> > America: The Good Neighbor.
> >
> >
> > Widespread but only partial news coverage was given
> >
> > recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from
> >
> > Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television
> >
> > commentator. What follows is the full text of his
> >
> > trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional
> >
> > Record:
> >
> >
> >
> > "This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the
> >
> > Americans as the most generous and possibly the least
> >
> > appreciated people on all the earth.
> >
> >
> >
> > Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and
> >
> > Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the
> >
> > Americans who poured in billions of dollars and
> >
> > forgave other billions in debts. None of these
> >
> > countries is today paying even the interest on its
> >
> > remaining debts to the United States.
> >
> >
> >
> > When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it
> >
> > was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward
> >
> > was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of
> >
> > Paris. I was there. I saw it.
> >
> >
> >
> > When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United
> >
> > States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59
> >
> > American communities were flattened by tornadoes.
> >
> > Nobody helped.
> >
> >
> >
> > The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped
> >
> > billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now
> >
> > newspapers in those countries are writing about the
> >
> > decadent, warmongering Americans.
> >
> >
> >
> > I'd like to see just one of those countries that is
> >
> > gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar
> >
> > build its own airplane. Does any other country in the
> >
> > world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the
> >
> > Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why
> >
> > don't they fly them? Why do all the International
> >
> > lines except Russia fly American Planes?
> >
> >
> >
> > Why does no other land on earth even consider putting
> >
> > a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese
> >
> > technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German
> >
> > technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about
> >
> > American technocracy, and you find men on the moon -
> >
> > not once, but several times and safely home again.
> >
> >
> >
> > You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs
> >
> > right in the store window for everybody to look at.
> >
> > Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded.
> >
> > They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless
> >
> > they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American
> >
> > dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.
> >
> >
> >
> > When the railways of France, Germany and India were
> >
> > breaking down through age, it was the Americans who
> >
> > rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the
> >
> > New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an
> >
> > old caboose. Both are still broke.
> >
> >
> >
> > I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to
> >
> > the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me
> >
> > even one time when someone else raced to the Americans
> >
> > in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even
> >
> > during the San Francisco earthquake.
> >
> >
> >
> > Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one
> >
> > Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get
> >
> > kicked around. They will come out of this thing with
> >
> > their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled
> >
> > to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating
> >
> > over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one
> >
> > of those."
> >
> >
> >
> > Stand proud, America!
> >
> > +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> >
> > This is one of the best editorials that I have ever
> >
> > read regarding the United States. It is nice that one
> >
> > man realizes it. I only wish that the rest of the
> >
> > world would realize it. We are always blamed for
> >
> > everything, and never even get a thank you for the
> >
> > things we do.
> >
> >
> >
> > Maybe each of you can send this to at least one person
> >
> > and they might send it to one of their friends until this letter
> >
> > is sent to every person on the web.

------------------
Guitars, women, beer...what more can a man ask for?
I AM the bard eternal


------------------

Captain of Bouncers, Boogre Bar

LH Member

General Woundwort's body was never found. It could be that he still lives his fierce life somewhere else. But from that day forward, mothers would tell their kittens that if they were not good, the General would get them. Such was Woundwort's monument, and perhaps it would not have displeased him.

[This message has been edited by Liliara (edited 09-13-2001).]
Liliara is offline  
Old 09-13-2001, 03:15 AM   #44
Kaz
Thoth - Egyptian God of Wisdom
 

Join Date: August 16, 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 2,891
Quote:
Originally posted by Liliara:
Oh yes, I can see where what you are saying is true! After all, Americans have only died for American people. We have never died for anyone but our own countrymen. WHAT A JOKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!

While our troops were in foreign countries, dreaming of homeland and their families, the families left behind in America had to understand that our own freedom wasn't all that mattered! Do me a favor 'Dio' do your homework before you put down the Americans as being self centered! When was the last time you left YOUR family to go to another country to fight for their freedom? Just a question!
Liliara, Diogenes, please calm down. I understand that there is a difference in opinion here, but let's not resort to personal comments here and keep things nice, calm and unpersonal (if you can say that), ok?
I can't say anything to the Vietnam wars and what America has done in the last century because I know just about nothing about it (in Germany History lessons begins with the ancient Egyptians and works to modern times. We're currently somewhere around WWI). What I do know is that American help saved Germany's economy and kept thousands of people from starving after WWII - among others my grandmother's family.

------------------


Kazara

Waitress at Cloudy's Cafe

[This message has been edited by Kaz (edited 09-13-2001).]
Kaz is offline  
Old 09-13-2001, 03:16 AM   #45
Liliara
Red Wizard of Thay
 

Join Date: August 17, 2001
Location: Florida
Posts: 874
I'm not interested in fighting. I am too drained right now. Catch me tomarrow,though!

------------------

Captain of Bouncers, Boogre Bar

LH Member

General Woundwort's body was never found. It could be that he still lives his fierce life somewhere else. But from that day forward, mothers would tell their kittens that if they were not good, the General would get them. Such was Woundwort's monument, and perhaps it would not have displeased him.
Liliara is offline  
Old 09-13-2001, 03:31 AM   #46
KHaN
Drow Warrior
 

Join Date: June 21, 2001
Location: the not to distant future,
Posts: 250
Quote:
Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown:
I think it is patently obvious that most Americans seem to value American lives more than those of people of other countries.
If that were the case the why do we have so many bases around the world that our American men and women live in day in and day out alot of which are a risk to their own health/life? I hardly think it's ALL because of US self-interest in a country or goverment.



------------------

"Heads are gonna roll..."
KHaN is offline  
Old 09-13-2001, 09:04 AM   #47
Moni
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Quote:
Moni, it is late and I am tired. Otherwise, I would answer you at much greater length.


Are you rested yet? j/k, you don't have to answer me at all if you don't feel like it.

Quote:
For now I will just say that in all the examples you named, there were reasons of national self-interest behind each.


If you are willing to prove that without using speculation, I will be willing to learn something from you.

Quote:
The US does not typically do anything at all on the international scene, unless it is in the national interest, the same as other countries. That is the historical and political reality.


Again, if you are willing to prove this without using speculation, I will be willing to learn something from you.

Quote:
The actions of the Red Cross and other private organizations clearly are not the same as actions of the US government. The government cannot take credit for such.


No kidding! Did I say or even imply that The Red Cross was a military based organization? I said it was an American based organization (originated in America).
This thread does not confine itself to a strictly military standpoint on how important the rest of the world is to American citizens and my post was not meant to be perceived as one.

Quote:
One major exception, a rare case where the US gov't and military intervened for truly noble reasons, was Kosovo. As it turns out, President Clinton and his government received tremendous criticism from other Americans for doing so. Apparently, the idea of risking US lives for purely noble objectives for once was quite objectionable to many Americans.


I do not personally know anyone in America who was so upset that the Americans would go into Kosovo and help people being murdered there who could not help themselves that they would demand our withdrawal from that country during that period of time!
I saw more praise than reprehension for our country's actions to save innocent people from ethnic cleansing.

If legitimate statistics prove me wrong than the majority of Americans who don't care must come from some other part of this country, some part I have never been exposed to nor would I want to be.
I saw more rallying support for the safety of those people than I saw any "whining" that our boys went in to help them.

I have an acquaintance from Kosovo who is married to a former Army Sgt that she met there when he was on assignment to act as a reporter during that conflict and neither one of them speak of ill feelings from any direction for what America did to help.

Please, if you have legitimate stastics, feel free to prove me wrong.

If those who criticized Clinton's decision to go in and help those people were Republican politicians, I can see where you could perceive your information as being factual but what can you prove from a viewpoint of the actual American people as to how wrong it was to let that atrocity continue based merely on the claim that our men's lives were more important than the lives of innocent men, women and children being slaughtered in Kosovo?





------------------


You know childhood is over when a puddle seems like an obstacle instead of an opportunity.

Is Too! Is Not! Is Too! Is Not!
 
Old 09-13-2001, 09:10 AM   #48
250
Horus - Egyptian Sky God
 

Join Date: March 4, 2001
Location: either CA or MO
Age: 35
Posts: 2,674
there is no reality, only perceptions, so we both can be right
250 is offline  
Old 09-13-2001, 09:27 AM   #49
Zoltan
Symbol of Cyric
 

Join Date: August 17, 2001
Location: Waterdeep
Age: 37
Posts: 1,222
Nobody is overreacting on Twin Tower, it's a catastrophe! From this moment and on, nothing will be same again, I cant understand these bloody, revengeful creatures! LAden's words are unbelieveable. Stupid long-beared creature. I'm not an American and I'm not living there but I feel the same.. Because the people dying there.. we're all living in the same planet.. sharing the same oceans.. breathing the same air.. we are all one
Zoltan is offline  
Old 09-13-2001, 09:35 AM   #50
MagiK
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally posted by Moni:
The U.S. spends a significant amount of money maintaining military bases all over the world. Is this for our own protection or for the policing of countries who would pose a threat to the peace of their neighbors or even the rest of the world? Do you think terrorism would be more rampant without their presence?

Why was the U.S. involved in the Iran-Iraq conflict in the 80's?

How is it that the Syrians were able to kill 248 American Marines in 1983 if our country did not care enough to set themselves up in other people's countries for those people's protection?

Am I wrong in remembering that our involvement in the Iran-Iraq conflict got us dogged world-wide for sticking our nose into other people's business for the purpose of protecting people who could not protect themselves from terrorists?

The rest of the world cries for help when they need it but then screams foul when we take the upper hand...can you blame this country for taking a back seat to going in first when there are treaties protecting the lives of terrorists now?

Daniel Pipes (director of the middle eastern forum, former director of the Foreign Policy Research Institute), who has a slew of credits toward his education and accomplishments as well as being a well respected journalist and international consultant for a number of boards poses the question regarding the Hamas infrastructure of the United States:

"As these fundamentalist groups become more aggressive, more forceful, how will America respond? By appeasing them?" He then offers his suggestion: "The U.S. government and body politic should discredit them like it does the KKK. It should uplift the non-radical Moslems."

A suggestion for a completely peaceful process...one that this country needs to follow if they don't want the rest of the world up in arms over our show of force in stopping terrorists when they can easily come from organizations that we allow to exist within our very borders.

Of Chabali's plan to bring down the reign of the Saddam Hussien regime and for for enforcing the UN sanctioned inspections on Iraq?

"I'm of two minds. Saddam is ghastly, from both a human point of view and from an American-interest point of view. But we Americans have a tendency to burden ourselves with other people's problems and thereby letting every one else off the hook. Why are we begging the local countries in the region to join our efforts? The Kuwaitis are standoffish, and why not? America is doing all the work anyway, they say, so we might as well reap the benefits. I'd like to turn the equation a round: have them pleading with us to take care of Saddam."

These examples are some time after Vietnam are they not?

More American lives have been lost on foreign soils for nothing more than the protection of people's basic human rights than any other country that I am presently aware of.
War against other people's human rights and "ethnic cleansing" is as much "terrorism" as car bombings and crashing airplanes full of innocent people into large occupied and innocent buildings. If countries have not recieved any help from the U.S. I can only think that it would be because they have refused it or will not ask for it.

Can you correct me if I am wrong here?

Here is another example of just how much the U.S. cares:
A Tribute In One Man's Perspective



OMG there are miricles...Moni and I on the same side of an issue?? heheh Just Kidding Moni, very nice post by the way!


And I do recall both Saudi Arabia AND Kuwait BEGGING for the US to send aid in the war against Saddam. I also recall Saddam BEGGING for the aid of the US when Iran was about to trounce Iraq in a bloody genocidal war (course we didnt know he was the bastard he is, at the time)

If it weren't for Isreal we should just pull our aid programs and shipments of hundreds of tons fo food to the middle east and just look after our selves since According to Diog. we are only self serving bullys anyhow. You know the only reason these places have any wealth at all is because US industries and rich oold white men helpped them set up and use the technology to produce the oil they didn't even know they had.


------------------
Disintigration is easy, If you really want to impress me, ReIntegrate it.
 
 


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Twin Lamps Korvanik Miscellaneous Games (RPG or not) 2 02-02-2004 04:48 PM
Twin Peaks Grojlach Entertainment (Movies, TV Shows and Books/Comics) 3 02-06-2003 08:47 PM
My stats for people in the 2 towers (contains two tower spoilers) Sythe Baldurs Gate II: Shadows of Amn & Throne of Bhaal 2 12-22-2002 11:49 PM
Twin Lamps Thamrys Greybeard Miscellaneous Games (RPG or not) 5 09-23-2002 05:40 AM
Stats on the Twin Towers Avatar General Conversation Archives (11/2000 - 01/2005) 14 09-11-2001 04:50 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:17 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
©2017 Ironworks Gaming TM & The Great Escape Studios - All Rights Reserved