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Old 09-11-2001, 07:57 PM   #151
AngelofDeath
Drizzt Do'Urden
 

Join Date: June 11, 2001
Location: Wherever the road takes me.....
Age: 47
Posts: 608
I say we end this, like we did WWII.

I'm kidding, I don't want to be attacked......read on, please


Actually, the problem with that is.......Too many other 3rd world countries have Nukes.....and are stupid enough to use them.

I can not believe the dribble I've been reading(trying to catch up), we need to pull together here, and not bash the leaders of this country(not pointing any finger, of course).

I do not think that we would blindly attack Afganastan(sp) without proving that it was Bin-laden. Our leadrers have more sense then that


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Old 09-11-2001, 08:54 PM   #152
Moni
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Quote:
Originally posted by Nachtrafe:
No...you didn't say the words "Bush is going to use this to take over the country?!" However, you insinuated it quite nicely.
No, you are saying that I insinuated that!
I do not see Mr.Bush as being a strong enough person on his own to be able to take over this country!
I do however see where he can take advantage of this for his own political gain and I wouldn't put it past him to do so since "being someone special" is so important to the man living in his father's shadow.

As far as other threads go...I got pretty sick of being attacked for things I did not say...things I DID NOT insinuate! What I said is what I said and if you want to read more into it for a reason to get in my sh*t, that's your problem, I don't have to take it.

I should not have to continously defend myself against you and your point of view of what you want to read into my posts and the derogatory statements that you want to make as a result of your own misunderstanding.

You should be man enough to accept the fact that not everyone sees the world through the same eyes and if I feel sorry for the rest of the world because we have a retard in the White House, I should be entitled to that opinion no matter what is going on in this country.

If Bush handles this matter with speed, tact and consideration for the lives of American civilians and military personnel, I'll be both suprised and grateful.
That does not mean however that I have to cave in to popular demand and praise him for being in office today, tomorrow or any other day of my life and I hope you can understand that and drop this please.

Between your rants and those of LoA, I feel like I should be blamed for the ugliness that has arisen in this forum today and I know in my heart I am not at fault for speaking a small part of my opinion that I am perfectly entitled to according to the Constitution.

All this energy wasted getting on getting on my case when it could be spent on more emotionally uplifting topics. This thread was created for opinion, not controversy.
I never called your opinions or you names did I? Other than calling you on your overblown misunderstandings haven't I let you be?



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You know childhood is over when a puddle seems like an obstacle instead of an opportunity.

Is Too! Is Not! Is Too! Is Not!
 
Old 09-11-2001, 09:04 PM   #153
Sir Taliesin
Silver Dragon
 

Join Date: March 4, 2001
Location: Knoxville, TN USA
Age: 54
Posts: 1,641
I have just heard on NBC that the NSA has intercpeted messages to Bin Ladens group
that the "Targets have been hit". We have used this type of information to put away Josuf Ramsey, a crony of Bin Ladens and those responsible for the African Bombings some years back.

They are also saying that Knives, not guns where used to hijack the planes. I guess from cell phone calls from the passengers.

If bin Laden is responsible, then no justice, revenge or punishment. Just send him straight to HELL and those that support him as well! Leave no rock
unturned!!!


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Old 09-11-2001, 11:00 PM   #154
Nachtrafe
Red Wizard of Thay
 

Join Date: August 9, 2001
Location: Upstate NY, USA
Age: 45
Posts: 889
Quote:
Originally posted by Tuor:
Firstly I'd like to extend my deepest sympathies to anuyone on this forum who may know any of the victims of these terrible atrocities and all our American friends as well.

Secondly an apology, I've not had time to read all the threads because it's midnight and I have to work in 6 hours but I felt it was important I got my point of view across. So sorry if I double up on anyone else's comments.

The US is now suffering from its recent domestic policy on terrorism, for some reason it has never paid it a lot of attention in the past, sure it has retaliated against atrocities committed against it, but it has never really had to get to grips with constant, aggressive attacks on its home country over a period of years like many other countries have. It therefore lacks the infrastructure and general security measures and awareness that are needed to stop these attacks from happening.

If the US were more aware it would have been considerably more difficult to 'sneak some people on planes with guns' to hijack and then fly the 767s into the world trade centre, pentagon and Pittsburgh (apparently it's ultimate target was camp david).

Yes the FBI, CIA are on the case but they don't patrol every town and city in the country. If this was planned in Britain (IRA), Israel (Hezbollah) or South Africa until recently it would have been far more difficult to perpetrate because all security forces are permanently on a high state of alert.

I'm not saying it would not happen but it would be much more difficult. In short the US has domestically as far as terrorism is concerned been lulled into a false sense of security.

In terms of who is responsible I think it is most likely a powerful fundamentalist terrorist group (probably Bin Laden) backed by one or more countries with a gripe against the USA.

The terrorists provide the maniacs willing to commit suicide to strike at the US while the countries involved provide fake documentation, money, transportation and most important training and the access to cutting edge technology needed to pull off this sort of operation.

A terrorist group on its own would not be able to perpetrate this alone nor would a small group of people acting off there own back, this took months of planning, studying plane timetables and working out ways of sneaking undeteckted onto planes.

My guess is Iraq, the Sudan or Libya are the prime suspects not Afganistan-they just harbor bin laden-there was a quite disgusting statement issued by the Iraqi government today.

Palestine is not guilty because if they were the US would gladly help Israel wipe it off the face of the earth and Araft looked genuineley shocked by what happened.

It smacks of bin laden who told a London based reporter that the US was going to be the target of something very big in the coming weeks a fortnight ago. The group also never admit to attacks like these-and contary to some posts haven't admitted they were involved. They are also aware of how important it is to strike at symbolic targets to give the rest of the extremists a boost-and you don't get much more symbolic than the world trade centre or the pentagon.

I have to say whoever is in charge of security at the airports the planes were hijacked from ought to be utterly ashamed of themselves. I suspect the pilots were murdered because I know if I was flying a plane and someone stuck a gu in my face and told me to fly into the world trade centre I'd crash it into the bay instead given half a chance-you know you'll die anyway.

As to what's to be done you CANNOT strike at every terrorist group on earth because then they'll retaliate ad bring your country to its knees, believe me the IRA have been making a royal nuisance of themselves for the last 40 years in the UK they have caused havoc and that's just one bunch who have tied upo thousands of troopsm, soldiers and resources in an ultimately fruitless pursuit of it.

Multiple that problem by the thousand in a country unused to dealing with terrorists and that is what the US would face.

You cannot physically wipe out all terrorists the best solution in my opinion is for western countries to work hard at their diplomatic relations with the rest of the world so no one wants to sponsor terrorism-bribe them if you must.

If the whole world community works together there is nowhere for these murderous little sods to hide and you'll get them in the end.

The British tried to murder all the IRA leaders in dublin in the 1920s and it did not work. If the solution was to kill all terrorists it would have been done a long time ago-it hasn't been, that should give a clue about how effective that tactic is.

The US also has to be very careful it doesn't overreact and upset potential allies in this-like Russia and China, it should confine itself to a couple of punitive strikes against those responsible, perhaps remove bin laden then get one with recruiting support for a world wide crusade against terrorism and catch everyone responsible if possible.

You can't go eradicating thousands of people because that makes you as bad as them and drums up support for the terrorists. But you should try and bring them to justice, this is an ideal opportunity for the US to prove it really is a super power by acting like one and not taking a scattergun approach and blowing great chunks out of every country ever accused of global terrorism.

I'm sorry if I offended anyone or rambled on a bit but I'm knackered and I thought you might appreciate the effort. I just hope there's a woprld left for us tomorrow I've just heard the US is bombing afganistan.
Very well said!

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Old 09-11-2001, 11:42 PM   #155
Nachtrafe
Red Wizard of Thay
 

Join Date: August 9, 2001
Location: Upstate NY, USA
Age: 45
Posts: 889
OK...this entire post is ridiculous. This is nothing but vitriol and whining. And, since I have stated repeatedly that I prefer to deal point to point...here goes...

Quote:
Originally posted by Moni:
No, you are saying that I insinuated that!
I do not see Mr.Bush as being a strong enough person on his own to be able to take over this country!
Ummm...OK. You're telling me that someone who rose to incredible prominence in one of the most cutthroat business in the world(Oil) isn't strong? Even fellow oilmen, both in the US and abroad comment on how astute and capable GW Bush is. And that's not his father talking. GW did it on his own. He was given starting shares and money by his family, but he rose to prominence on his own. Same with politics.

Quote:

I do however see where he can take advantage of this for his own political gain and I wouldn't put it past him to do so since "being someone special" is so important to the man living in his father's shadow.
So you're saying that the only reason he is going to respond to this crisis is to further himself and his own ego? Or am I reading things into your comments unfairly? If I am, by all means, please clarify.

Quote:

As far as other threads go...I got pretty sick of being attacked for things I did not say...things I DID NOT insinuate! What I said is what I said and if you want to read more into it for a reason to get in my sh*t, that's your problem, I don't have to take it.
I have not read anything into anything you have said. I have either directly quoted you, or you have inferred and insinuated so loudly that the meaning is unmistakable. As for "get(ting) into my sh*t", I am not the one who brought up an outside, personal relationship in order to divert a debate that I was losing.

Quote:

I should not have to continously defend myself against you and your point of view of what you want to read into my posts and the derogatory statements that you want to make as a result of your own misunderstanding.
I dont recall making any derogatory statements. If I have, please reiterate them, and I will apoligize. I dont belive in winnign debates with insults and emotionally charged flames. Please, quote any personal insults and I will gladly apologize and put them into proper context.

Quote:

You should be man enough to accept the fact that not everyone sees the world through the same eyes and if I feel sorry for the rest of the world because we have a retard in the White House, I should be entitled to that opinion no matter what is going on in this country.
Again...see my above statment about Bush. Also, you continually state that you are not Bush-Bashing. Ummm..."a retard in the White House"? That sounds like bashing to me.

Quote:

If Bush handles this matter with speed, tact and consideration for the lives of American civilians and military personnel, I'll be both suprised and grateful.
That does not mean however that I have to cave in to popular demand and praise him for being in office today, tomorrow or any other day of my life and I hope you can understand that and drop this please.
I hope he does handle things with speed, tact, and consideration. And Moni...again, for the record, I never asked you to praise Bush. I asked you to stop being negative about him personally, and respect the fact that he is the President, dealing with a national emergency. Your(and my) personal feelings about the man are irrelevent in such a situation. We, as citizens should be banding together to support him, and the rest of our govt in whatever way is necessary.

Quote:

Between your rants and those of LoA, I feel like I should be blamed for the ugliness that has arisen in this forum today and I know in my heart I am not at fault for speaking a small part of my opinion that I am perfectly entitled to according to the Constitution.

All this energy wasted getting on getting on my case when it could be spent on more emotionally uplifting topics. This thread was created for opinion, not controversy.

I never called your opinions or you names did I? Other than calling you on your overblown misunderstandings haven't I let you be?

No, I dont recall you calling me names. You were rather insulting on more than one occasion though. And the comment about Cloudy was totally, 110% out of line. That would be like me attacking Rex. There is no call for it. Besided, my relationship with her has absolutely no bearing on what I post. I am an intelligent, self willed, adult, and I make up my own mind. She and I have had more than one disagreement about that. So please, stop that particular line of venom right now, and stopper it completely. I absolutely will not tolerate it.

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Old 09-12-2001, 12:17 AM   #156
KHaN
Drow Warrior
 

Join Date: June 21, 2001
Location: the not to distant future,
Posts: 250
Agreed Nachtrafe...you stop and it will stop. Can you just drop it like Moni said, or is it going to keep on going? I'm done saying everthing in this thread that needs to be said. Leave Moni alone. Get on with your life. I will know if it is finished if you either A)don't respond again, or B)say "OK" finished. Let us get back to dealing with what has happen today. -Peace-

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[This message has been edited by KHaN (edited 09-12-2001).]
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Old 09-12-2001, 12:29 AM   #157
Moni
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Posts: n/a
point to point...you have yours and I have mine. We obviously disagree.

You want to keep pushing this subject?

Quote:
Ummm...OK. You're telling me that someone who rose to incredible prominence in one of the most cutthroat business in the world(Oil) isn't strong? Even fellow oilmen, both in the US and abroad comment on how astute and capable GW Bush is. And that's not his father talking. GW did it on his own. He was given starting shares and money by his family, but he rose to prominence on his own. Same with politics.

GW's accomplishments as you see them are your opinion, the same as the way I see him is mine. Notice your own keyword "cutthroat"

Quote:
So you're saying that the only reason he is going to respond to this crisis is to further himself and his own ego? Or am I reading things into your comments unfairly? If I am, by all means, please clarify
Did I say that? You crack me up...I said "I do however see where he can take advantage of this for his own political gain" did I not?
He is going to respond to this crisis because as our country's leader, he has to...how he responds to it and what it makes of him in the public eye is a totally different matter.

Twist it into whatever you feel comfortable with, just keep it to yourself because I see no need for me to continously repeat myself and disect my own posts to make you feel better. If you don't like it you are going to have to get over it...its my opinion.
I don't like the way you need to keep bickering but am I going to let it eat me alive and pursue you until you see things my way? Hardly. Seriously.

Quote:
I have not read anything into anything you have said. I have either directly quoted you, or you have inferred and insinuated so loudly that the meaning is unmistakable. As for "get(ting) into my sh*t", I am not the one who brought up an outside, personal relationship in order to divert a debate that I was losing.
Tell me how does one "lose" a debate where the outcome of opinions doesn't mean squat? Will you have more friends when this is over? Will I? Does it matter? Really?! You did tell me what I had 'insinuated"...you were wrong. That's OK, I am wrong sometimes myself. Don't let it get to you, its no big deal. Seriously.

Quote:
I dont recall making any derogatory statements. If I have, please reiterate them, and I will apoligize. I dont belive in winnign debates with insults and emotionally charged flames. Please, quote any personal insults and I will gladly apologize and put them into proper context.
I don't need your apologies to survive. I called you on the points where you were offending. Why continue to drag it out? Seriously. If you feel that you owe me any apologies, go look for your slights yourself. I neither need nor want you to apologize for anything you don't feel you should.

Quote:
Again...see my above statment about Bush. Also, you continually state that you are not Bush-Bashing. Ummm..."a retard in the White House"? That sounds like bashing to me.
Well Golly Gee Beav! I just thought if you were going to accuse me you might actually want valid reason to! Is that so bad? Seriously? You asked for a reason to get in my sh*t...I gave you one. Be happy I did not give you ten.

Does our constitution state anywhere that it is against the law to say what I think? Seriously.

Quote:
I hope he does handle things with speed, tact, and consideration. And Moni...again, for the record, I never asked you to praise Bush. I asked you to stop being negative about him personally, and respect the fact that he is the President, dealing with a national emergency. Your(and my) personal feelings about the man are irrelevent in such a situation. We, as citizens should be banding together to support him, and the rest of our govt in whatever way is necessary.
I had stopped saying anything about Bush long before you got here and got on my case. Go read up in the threads and realize I had not said anything more about Bush, other than I promised notto say anything that would offend anyone until you jumped in later in the afternoon to stir up all the sh*t again.
A lot of other people have made just as, if not worse, derogatory remarks. If they had defended their rights against your dislike of it would you insist on continuing to go rounds with them?

Where did I ever deny any support for our country?
Just because I don't appreciate Dubya the same way you do does not mean that I am in any way unpatriotic.

I had stifled my opinion out of respect for other people here, but again, I kept getting pushed to defend myself. I have defended my opinion as well as yours. Get over yourself. Seriously.

I did not start with the insults. If you don't like my opinion, say all you want but don't tell me what I am telling you when the words aren't there. I'll call you on it just like i would anyone else. Seriously.

Feel free to attack Rex all you like...Rex is a big enough man to stand up for himself to you on his own and if you post untruths...I'll call you on them, plain and simple.

You have to tolerate nothing from me but my own defense against your continued unwanted, meaningless arguments. If you don't want to be made to tolerate it I have three words for you: Lay off me.

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You know childhood is over when a puddle seems like an obstacle instead of an opportunity.

Is Too! Is Not! Is Too! Is Not!


[This message has been edited by Moni (edited 09-12-2001).]
 
Old 09-12-2001, 12:40 AM   #158
Moni
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Quote:
Originally posted by KHaN:
Agreed Nachtrafe...you stop and it will stop. Can you just drop it like Moni said, or is it going to keep on going? I'm done saying everthing in this thread that needs to be said. Leave Moni alone. Get on with your life. I will know if it is finished if you either A)don't respond again, or B)say "OK" finished. Let us get back to dealing with what has happen today. -Peace-

Thanks KHaN,
You are a true friend.
Hey, my sis got a hold of me (busy signals nationwide all day) and my nephew is OK...in Baltimore, safe and sound. He is going back to DC next week.
I am going to bed. You have a good night at work, KHaN.





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You know childhood is over when a puddle seems like an obstacle instead of an opportunity.

Is Too! Is Not! Is Too! Is Not!
 
Old 09-12-2001, 12:41 AM   #159
John D Harris
Ninja Storm Shadow
 

Join Date: March 27, 2001
Location: Northport,Alabama, USA
Age: 56
Posts: 3,577
My American Brothers and Sisters,
We all have the freedom of speach, we all have family and friends that have been killed or killed for that freedom in the past. We also have the freedom not to speak. IMHO Now is not the time to bicker. OUR country has suffered a great tragedy, Please I beg of all us if we can't say anything nice don't say anything at all.
Tomorrow we can get back to scraping, and show the pukes that we will not be terrified. Everyone can even start a why I hate John D. tread and point to this post as permission (if the Mods say anything), but please not tonight. What ever you decide let your conscience, and the consitution of this Great nation be your guide.

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"the memories of a man in his old age,
are deeds of a man in his prime"

[This message has been edited by John D Harris (edited 09-12-2001).]
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Old 09-12-2001, 12:47 AM   #160
KHaN
Drow Warrior
 

Join Date: June 21, 2001
Location: the not to distant future,
Posts: 250
Quote:
Originally posted by Moni:
Thanks KHaN,
You are a true friend.
Hey, my sis got a hold of me (busy signals nationwide all day) and my nephew is OK...in Baltimore, safe and sound. He is going back to DC next week.
I am going to bed. You have a good night at work, KHaN.


I'm glad you finally got ahold of her. Thank God he is okay. Sleep well Princess.




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"Heads are gonna roll..."
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