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Old 09-11-2001, 05:35 PM   #101
Staralfur
Baaz Draconian
 

Join Date: April 8, 2001
Location: Nottingham, UK
Age: 37
Posts: 786
There was a report on the news that some people believe no terrorist group was capable of doing this by themselves, so either a country was helping out, or several have got together to form a terrorist supergroup - this scares me.

On the subject of blowing up planes here's a hypothetical question;

I put 500 people in a locked room, and 5 people and a bomb in another next to it. In 10 minutes the bomb will explode and kill all 505 people. I give you a button that allows the bomb to be disarmed by a smaller charge exploding, which will, of course, kill the 5 people in the room with the bomb. What do you do? Would it make any difference if you were in one of the rooms?



[This message has been edited by Staralfur (edited 09-11-2001).]
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Old 09-11-2001, 05:38 PM   #102
Billikins the Bold
The Magister
 

Join Date: June 7, 2001
Location: Manchester
Posts: 147
Quote:
Originally posted by Ryanamur:
It's war. There's nothing pretty about war. The aim of war is to dominate your ennemy by ANY means available. If you loose you're dead and if you win, you don't have to worry about the consequenses because you make the law.

Black and White.

Its hard to try to be constructive about this attitude because its exactly this sort of attitude that has caused, and continues to cause, so much misery in this world. This is the rhetoric of extremism from Nazi's to Stalin to Pol Pot: "Might is Right".

At the moment a massacre and an outrage has been commited by warped extremists responisible to no-one. If a democratically elected govt then goes out and commits the same acts then you are worse than these few individuals. You would stand accused, as a society, of the same crimes.



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Old 09-11-2001, 05:39 PM   #103
Ryanamur
Fzoul Chembryl
 

Join Date: March 29, 2001
Location: Montréal, Canada
Age: 43
Posts: 1,763
Quote:
Originally posted by Gabriel:
You say you understand but I don't think you do, the act you suggest would lead to new terrorist that would move in secret, that would be worse, they might travel into the US uncover and it will start again, it not like they have terrorist written on there pass-ports. The only way would be to close the US so no one gets in, but the enough simpthizes for groups to appear in the US.
You can never remove terrorism from any country, it seed will allways exist. All such actions will do is to make people in others country simipths with the terrorists and that would make them stronger and less the Us in the worlds view. There is no 'Win' to such actions only 'Lose'
You're right, there's no win. It is sad, it is devastating. They're ways to track people that enter the country (most of them go agains the Bill of rights)but I'm sure that the Americans woudn't mind using them if it was to ensure the greater security of the nation.

The point is that there's no way to convert a fanatic. There's only one way to prevent him from action: removing him. Whether that means putting him in jail or killing him, that's irrelevant. If you cannot remove him, he will strike again until he is removed. That is a realisation that society must come to. Until then, terrorism will keep creeping up and there's nothing that we can do that will stop them from doing so.

Now, I don't know if you believe in God or not. But if you were told all your life that the American Scum must die 'cause God told us so in our dreams, you would be led to believe that all American must die. It's that simple. To them, killing innocent is like killing a fly overing over a big mac: it must be done.



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If I am because I think, then, if I talk without thinking, I'm not really talking! Am I?
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Old 09-11-2001, 05:40 PM   #104
Gabriel
Emerald Dragon
 

Join Date: March 4, 2001
Location: England
Age: 34
Posts: 920
Quote:
Originally posted by Ryanamur:
Sorry, forgot to answer the first comment (and the way the discussion is going, I opted for another post.)

Again, you're thinking in grey. No, I wouldn't like it. I would sure hope that my familly would not die in such an horrific way. However, I cannot let this thought cloud my judgement. If I was a military strategist (which I'm not... but probably should be ) I would not let my judgement be clouded by the morality of the issue. Yes, it is horrific that innocent would die in the process. However, I would rather the other guy's familly died then mine. If I start projecting pain from the impact, I would not bomb them... I would not kill them which means that the terrorist (who really doesn't give a damn about anything but the CAUSE) can still hijack a plane and crash it in Disney World when I'm there for a visit.

It's war. There's nothing pretty about war. The aim of war is to dominate your ennemy by ANY means available. If you loose you're dead and if you win, you don't have to worry about the consequenses because you make the law.

Black and White.

Dude your a terrorist then, you don't seem to give a damn about anything but the CAUSE. I'm surpised you haven't suggested nuking the cities they are in to get at them because Cruise missles might not kill all of them or might miss.
I can see that you are set in your views and how-ever flawed I see them there is nothing that will change them, so let just stop okay.


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Old 09-11-2001, 05:40 PM   #105
Ryanamur
Fzoul Chembryl
 

Join Date: March 29, 2001
Location: Montréal, Canada
Age: 43
Posts: 1,763
Quote:
Originally posted by Diogenes Of Pumpkintown:
What we have to fight is the idea that killing innocents is perfectly okay if done for the right cause. This applies as much to the vileness you are spewing as to that of any OTHER terrorist. My god, man, your mentality on this is EXACTLY the same as the terrorists themselves. Innocent people everywhere need to be protected both from the terrorists you are attacking and the form of terrorism you are advocating!!!!!!

I am going to withdraw from this discussion for now to cool off a bit, before I really get angry.
No need to get angry. It's vile, it's discusting, it's immoral but it's the only way to deal with this. Sorry, I'm not to happy about it myself but it's a fact
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Old 09-11-2001, 05:41 PM   #106
250
Horus - Egyptian Sky God
 

Join Date: March 4, 2001
Location: either CA or MO
Age: 35
Posts: 2,674
who are you to sacrfice others? who are you to decide your actions is for the "greater good"? perhaps when everyone is wiped out from the face of the earth, there will be no more terroism
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Old 09-11-2001, 05:46 PM   #107
Ryanamur
Fzoul Chembryl
 

Join Date: March 29, 2001
Location: Montréal, Canada
Age: 43
Posts: 1,763
Quote:
Originally posted by Gabriel:
Dude your a terrorist then, you don't seem to give a damn about anything but the CAUSE. I'm surpised you haven't suggested nuking the cities they are in to get at them because Cruise missles might not kill all of them or might miss.
I can see that you are set in your views and how-ever flawed I see them there is nothing that will change them, so let just stop okay.


Alright... but thrust me, I'm not happy or glorify my view... it's merily a constatation (and a sad one it is). There's no way that We (the guys that suffer from terrorism) can solve that problem. Because, as you said, the only way to do this would be to nuke them all!

I was just trying help people understand the pure stupidity of this. For those who just didn't understand the why. Just read my posts and you'll get it!

It's sad but that's the way it is
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Old 09-11-2001, 05:46 PM   #108
Lord of Alcohol
Xanathar Thieves Guild
 

Join Date: January 8, 2001
Location: Charlotte,NC
Age: 53
Posts: 4,560
There is a Marine Amphibious Unit station on Okinawa. This is a very powerful unit with approx. 7000 marines which cruise on various assault ships including a mini-carrier. Send them in and wipe out every terrorist camp in Afghanistan. If Afghanistan objects...well thats why we make Mk82 bombs. ■■■■'em they've been harboring garbage too long. And they arent much better in any case
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Old 09-11-2001, 05:46 PM   #109
Gabriel
Emerald Dragon
 

Join Date: March 4, 2001
Location: England
Age: 34
Posts: 920
Quote:
Originally posted by Ryanamur:
You're right, there's no win. It is sad, it is devastating. They're ways to track people that enter the country (most of them go agains the Bill of rights)but I'm sure that the Americans woudn't mind using them if it was to ensure the greater security of the nation.

You have the one largest ungaurded boarders in the world, Canada, and the immgrents from Mexico, you ideal to track will only work on those you know have entered the country, but they might seek in or already be inside. Even if you become a 'plioce state' that will only encourge terrorists who want their freedom.
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Old 09-11-2001, 05:47 PM   #110
Ryanamur
Fzoul Chembryl
 

Join Date: March 29, 2001
Location: Montréal, Canada
Age: 43
Posts: 1,763
Quote:
Originally posted by 250:
who are you to sacrfice others? who are you to decide your actions is for the "greater good"? perhaps when everyone is wiped out from the face of the earth, there will be no more terroism
Cool 250, you got it too



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If I am because I think, then, if I talk without thinking, I'm not really talking! Am I?
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