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Old 04-01-2001, 07:49 AM   #41
Epona
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
May as well call it Gremany. Nobody lives in a place the locals call either Gremany or Germany so what difference does it make. Hell, why didn't we keep calling it Holy Roman Empire? Deutschland would be too easy wouldn't it.


Yorick, you've hit on one of my pet hates there! I hate that place names get 'anglicized' or even completely changed in English to something different than the name the locals call a place. I realise that place names have and will probably continue to change as people move, languages change, cultures change etc. these things are always dynamic. But I think it is better to use as a standard name whatever the 'locals' use - Deutschland is not a difficult word in any language. Place names are of course written in a variety of characters and alphabets, but where they are translated into a different alphabet this should be done phonetically so the sound of the word stays true, not just given a different name.

Oh, back on topic I'm from England, born in Surrey (South East of the country) live in London, but an internationalist and citizen of the world.

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Old 04-01-2001, 08:25 AM   #42
Yorick
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Quote:
Originally posted by Epona:
Yorick, you've hit on one of my pet hates there! I hate that place names get 'anglicized' or even completely changed in English to something different than the name the locals call a place. I realise that place names have and will probably continue to change as people move, languages change, cultures change etc. these things are always dynamic. But I think it is better to use as a standard name whatever the 'locals' use - Deutschland is not a difficult word in any language. Place names are of course written in a variety of characters and alphabets, but where they are translated into a different alphabet this should be done phonetically so the sound of the word stays true, not just given a different name.

Same here Epona. It's not just in English that happens. It's an attitude left over from Rome - the Greeks would call people what they called themselves, but the Romans renamed them. The French call Deutschland: Allemagne. The Italians call it Allemani. So named to differentiate the Germanic tribe there as opposed to the Franks in France, the Lombards/Ostrogoths in Italy and the Visigoths of Spain.

There's the ludicrous situation in Switzerland where the country has a name in each language and a fair number of cities have different names depending on the language! (Italian, French or Deutsch)

Even in Singapore I got really annoyed with a fellow Aussie who inisted on
giving place names an Aussie accent! Created confusion because no place they were referring to existed. (Like Americans calling Brisbane ( - Pron. Brizbun), Briz-bane. This same Aussie REFUSED to call German Deutsch in conversation, and acted like I was wierd for referring to the language by it's name. (Boy did we get on like a house on fire. They also bagged computers/internet conversation, ignored new foods, laughed at local customs, and would 'shut off' if a conversation went into areas they knew little about. Very very strange attitude... but that's another story)

It's changing now though with examples like Congo -> Zaire -> Congo, Burma -> Myanmar, and Madras -> Chennai, Bombay -> Mumbai occuring thanks to educated journalism. Australia has called the capital of China Beijing for at least 12 years, but not all other nations do. Some still call it Peking.

I'd love to see more of those atlases that ONLY refer to a place in the local name. Praha, Roma, Venezia, Sverige, Norge, Munchen, Nippon, etc etc.

Wolgir and all the other Swedes for eg: Why not change your left hand box to 'Sverige'? Educate us!


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[This message has been edited by Yorick (edited 04-01-2001).]
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Old 04-01-2001, 09:06 AM   #43
The Xlord
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Ok Ok.
I'm from Norway. Ca. 1 Norwegian Mile outside of Oslo.(1 mile = 10 km, 1 km = 1000 m, 1 m = 100 cm and so on)
Go Norway.
Any others from Norway???
I don't want to be the only Norwegian with all these Swedish and Danish people. I get sick. And just to mention it you guys from sweden Ericson(or somthing) goes very bad.(■■■■ Ericson, sorry I hope you don't start a war)

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Old 04-01-2001, 09:07 AM   #44
Sir_Tainly
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Quote:
Originally posted by Epona:
Yorick, you've hit on one of my pet hates there! I hate that place names get 'anglicized' or even completely changed in English to something different than the name the locals call a place. I realise that place names have and will probably continue to change as people move, languages change, cultures change etc. these things are always dynamic. But I think it is better to use as a standard name whatever the 'locals' use - Deutschland is not a difficult word in any language. Place names are of course written in a variety of characters and alphabets, but where they are translated into a different alphabet this should be done phonetically so the sound of the word stays true, not just given a different name.

Oh, back on topic I'm from England, born in Surrey (South East of the country) live in London, but an internationalist and citizen of the world.


Interesting point there Epona, given that the name of our own country is a corruption. Technically England is meant to be land of the Angles, but "Ang" has changed to "Eng". Yet still in French its true meaning is obvious, thus the French name is technically more accurate.

Yorick some of the country names in Africa are meaningless when refering to a country, as the areas were just areas demarked by colonial powers, after the treaty of Berlin, IIRC.


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Old 04-01-2001, 09:08 AM   #45
Epona
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:


Wolgir and all the other Swedes for eg: Why not change your left hand box to 'Sverige'? Educate us!

Hey, that's a really good idea - I could certainly learn something if people did that. I try always to learn something about cultures and languages that I am unfamiliar with, and with this board being so international it would be a good place to do that. I don't know many place names beyond what they are changed to in English, but I am more than willing to learn. Same goes with languages, I am pretty much monolingual (hangs head in shame) but am keen to try and learn some things from languages other than English, so I would be happy to see people posting in other languages - although I might not be able to reply easily (if at all!) it would benefit me to try and learn something new.

I could be wrong, but I also think that languages and concepts, cultures, ways of thinking and viewing the world, are linked, and to know only one language can limit the ways in which you think to fit the structure of the language you use. (Not sure if that made any sense at all - if not, it probably isn't an English concept, so cannot be explained properly in English - I think that's what I mean).

Wasn't there once a language thread in Gen. Discussions? Perhaps we could ressurrect something like that.

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Old 04-01-2001, 09:15 AM   #46
Epona
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sir_Tainly:

Interesting point there Epona, given that the name of our own country is a corruption. Technically England is meant to be land of the Angles, but "Ang" has changed to "Eng". Yet still in French its true meaning is obvious, thus the French name is technically more accurate.

Yorick some of the country names in Africa are meaningless when refering to a country, as the areas were just areas demarked by colonial powers, after the treaty of Berlin, IIRC.


Very good point - and of course all countries and the idea of national boundaries and demarkations are quite modern concepts. Look at Europe for example, changes which occur all the time - the carve-up of borders and formation of new states after the both world wars, formation and then breakup of the USSR and the balkan states - these things are constantly in flux, and the idea of having a 'nationality' in a modern sense would have been completely alien to an ancient Roman - they were Roman by culture, not by country.

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Old 04-01-2001, 09:24 AM   #47
Yorick
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Quote:
Originally posted by Sir_Tainly:

Interesting point there Epona, given that the name of our own country is a corruption. Technically England is meant to be land of the Angles, but "Ang" has changed to "Eng". Yet still in French its true meaning is obvious, thus the French name is technically more accurate.

Yorick some of the country names in Africa are meaningless when refering to a country, as the areas were just areas demarked by colonial powers, after the treaty of Berlin, IIRC.



Sure, but then words Anglican and Anglo recreate the original intent when used. The point is the English call themselves English, whatever the original meaning of the word. (Which may well have alienated any Celts, Jutes, Saxons, Normans and Danes still living in 'Angleland' )

Some doesn't mean all with regard to Africa. Benin is the name of the Ancient Kingdom of the Area the modern nation covers. Liberia was so named as a home to freed slaves. Zimbabwe provided a name that gave local identity replacing the English name Rhodesia. And what about places like Lesotho and Swaziland?
Better that we call it what the locals call it, because chances are it has more significance than an Anglicised name.


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Old 04-01-2001, 09:33 AM   #48
Yorick
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Quote:
Originally posted by Epona:
Very good point - and of course all countries and the idea of national boundaries and demarkations are quite modern concepts. Look at Europe for example, changes which occur all the time - the carve-up of borders and formation of new states after the both world wars, formation and then breakup of the USSR and the balkan states - these things are constantly in flux, and the idea of having a 'nationality' in a modern sense would have been completely alien to an ancient Roman - they were Roman by culture, not by country.

The Romans did this with relation to peoples/races (Keltoi bacame Gauls) as well as land areas. The English did it in Australia with things like Uluru. Oh, there's a nice big rock, let's call it Ayers Rock!

It's like me walking up to the Thames and saying. Hmm nice river, think I'll call it the Bojobrindallamup creek. Then going back to Oz and writing about the Bojo creek not even bothering to find out what Londoners/Westmisterites call it.



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Old 04-01-2001, 09:34 AM   #49
Yorick
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Quote:
Originally posted by The Xlord:
Ok Ok.
I'm from Norway. Ca. 1 Norwegian Mile outside of Oslo.(1 mile = 10 km, 1 km = 1000 m, 1 m = 100 cm and so on)
Go Norway.
Any others from Norway???
I don't want to be the only Norwegian with all these Swedish and Danish people. I get sick. And just to mention it you guys from sweden Ericson(or somthing) goes very bad.(■■■■ Ericson, sorry I hope you don't start a war)

The Xlord
Defender and Master of Good Archmagic

Xlord did you read our discussion? Aren't you from Norge?


------------------
O.K..... what do I do now?


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Old 04-01-2001, 09:48 AM   #50
Moiraine
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But words in any language are not meant to remain static - all words evolve with time and with interaction between both native and foreign people.

If I wanted to stick to the past, I should not say I am French - my father's family comes from the city of Nice, and my mother's family from the northeastern area of France called Lorraine, and these two places have been rattached to France only 150 years ago, having been mostly independant through history by their location near to frontiers.

The name "Lorraine" comes from the name of Charlemagne's son Lothaire. "Nice" comes from the ancient Greek name "Nicae".

"Grenoble" is a Roman name, it comes from "Gratianopolis" - the ancient name of it was "Cularo", back when this place was only a village. Would you recognize where I live if I said I lived in "Cularo" ?

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