Help me understand

[jkagie]

I am trying understand the true purpose of the EfU Module. Its content and the DMs rules regarding PCs and items don't match up to me. I am not trying to flame anyone or belittle the content or the effort expended to develope EfU. In fact I applaud the very considerable time it must have took to create the module.

Here is my view so we may have a common ground to start the discussion from.

I jumped on the module a while back and saw what I thought it was. A Hack and Slash with mild RP. I thought the fighting was non-stop and the rewards were outrageously available (My first trip netted me over 1 million gold). So I thought, this would be a great server to relieve stress. Jump on, no worries, no thinking, just fighting and then leaving. No worry about death or what items you carried, just good ol beat the baddies down. There wasn't really any RP factor as everyone was lumped into the same party and couldn't leave. No need to RP at all really as there was no distinct plot that I saw. (Other than there is a dungeon and few return from it) Most modules that I go to in this manner are set up for those who just like to beat up stuff or level a character really fast without using a leveller mod that just hands out the xp. So, I figure as long as everyone is having fun and there is no grief play then all should be well.

I find out talking to some friends of mine (and after reading these boards) that there is actually a concern about people with Uber items. I was shocked and confused. A module that had (as far as I can tell) no penalties of any kind was getting upset about Uber items? If someone was going through and not making it fun for someone, ok, that is a problem, but if they are working alone I am not sure I see what is wrong.

So what is the difference between the Paladin that died 60+ times or one that never did if there was never a penalty for dying? Usually cheating means that someone is avoiding a penalty through nefarious means. If the act of respawning is the only penalty, I would find that a nuissance that lessens my enjoyment of this server.

Now before, I get told that I don't like dying.... I play mostly HCR servers in fairly low magic worlds. Out of 90 people on a module there may be 5 with +3 weapons. I have been there for over a year and I really like the RP content and penalties of death. It makes me feel like I accomplished something. The players and the DM are all very cognizant (sp?) of exploits and the PCs are server vault only to prevent PC tampering.

Ok with that said, when I play on a module like EfU I am obviously playing for the fun of it without having to worry about any penalties at all. I don't even save after playing. So why do I need to be concerened about Uber items? Mostly I just want to see the content, but occassionally I want to see how far I can get without the Uber items before dying. I made it through over half of the module the first time through, then died a whole mess of times. I kept going until I had gone through the completed content at the time. Now I just want to jump on for 10 minutes see what's new and then leave.

So now you know what I am thinking, help me understand what all the fuss is about.
A EfU fan,
Jim

[Ziroc]

The fuss is about folks that come into the server with items on them that have +12 to all stats, immune to 100% of every attack, and so on, those people might as well not play. If found, they will get one warning, then banned.

Most people that play EfU daily enjoy it being a challenge, and get pissed off when they see some dude kill a Dragon with one hit. again, might as well not even bother playing..

Undermountain seems extremely magical, because it IS! [img]smile.gif[/img] If you didn't know, Undermountain is based on a lot of Magic, and Halaster is a god-like Mage that created much of Undermountain with magic..

The items you find in EfU are not uber at all, I playtest each level I design for many, many hours, and bring in different characters to see how each class does in each area. The treasures will nearly always equal the encounter. Sure, we have +5 items, but we also have very high-class Monsters that require those items, as Undermountain is THE most dangerous dungeon in the Forgotten Realms.
(Also, the normal bioware Adult Red Dragon has like 240 HP's. in EfU, some have 1400 HP's. -- a more realistic number.) And since the next addon goes to the 40th level... well, the sky is the limit, eh?

There are a handful of plots and quests right now, but I am waiting till I complete levels 12-15 and then, I'll drop in the main plot of the story, which will be VERY detailed, and take a long time to finish.

Just because you don't have a load of plots doesn't mean it's not a RPG. I have it under the RPG section for people that wish to role-play their characters in real-time in EfU--And I see LOADS of people doing it! It's great to see, and makes me feel good they are enjoying it [img]smile.gif[/img] . But people that blow through each level 'hurrying to the next level' and ignoring everything annoys me. they clear out the dungeon before other players can see it. (until the respawns happen--which some do not).

Anyway, what is your username in EfU? Just wondering... Glad you like EfU, but what has made it popular is the RPG aspect and the detailing of each level. IMO.. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 11-06-2003, 03:34 PM: Message edited by: Ziroc ]

[robertthebard]

I too, enjoy the RP value of the dungeon, and have made the point, both in and out of that server, to many gamers, and chars alike. To me, it is acceptable to die, to earn what i have gotten, and realistic to think, in terms of game play anyway, lol, that i should not kill a dragon with one stroke of my sword, or that the same dragon couldn't put a dent in my armor, let alone me. There are plenty of modules of that type out there, i've seen them, and have a few server vault chars in a couple of them. I try to role play my way through the dungeon, and have made quite a few regular travelling companions because of it. There is value in that, also. Especially when they follow me to other servers, because of my game play. That is our main objection, people that just blow through everything w/out any effort what so ever. I have posted previously on what is cheating, and will not say anymore here. That thread is still current, and many opinions have been expressed. Welcome to Iron Works, and i mean that, i hope you continue to play on our server, and visit our boards.

[Micah Foehammer]

jkagie,

First of all, welcome to Ironworks. [img]smile.gif[/img] Hope you stay around and join in the discussions on the forums.

You raise some good points, (especially with regard to the fact that the server is advertised as having no item level restrictions) so let me toss in my two cents.

Overall, I have to second our esteemed bard's comments. [img]smile.gif[/img] The biggest problem, at least imho, is that these indestructible characters destroy the challenge (and fun)for other folks who are on the server at the same time or come in just behind them. On at least two occassions, I exited EfU in frustration. This came after watching a character join our party, then race ahead and clean out the dungeon several levels ahead of us. (Larry will remember this guy ... "Texan" ). While he was with us, he was dealing out unimaginable amounts of damage (300 hps or more per hit!)and never suffered a single hp of damage. It got incredibly boring following his tracks and coming across nothing but the carnage he left behind. Gee, what fun for the rest of us! Plus, it's tough to roleplay when you're trying to catch up to someone so you don't miss out on ALL the combat fun.

As to the plot, you're right - at the moment it is thin. Having seen what Z has done with the layout and the scripts that ARE in place, I am MORE than willing to be patient and trust that the finished product will be totally awesome. In the meantime, I'll enjoy the scenery. [img]smile.gif[/img]

As for the Paladin, remember that some people would have given up LONG before they died the 60th time - even with NO penalties for the respawn. I was totally amazed (and somewhat in awe) of the persistence he showed. Sure it was also funny, but deep down you have to admire a player who is determined to muddle thru like that.

Now with all that said, I've long been a proponent that Ziroc institute two changes:

(1) Institute a cap on the item levels on part One of EfU at something between 20 and 24 to (a) prevent characters from wearing items that grant TOTAL immunity to all damage types from entering the server, (b) to give Z some "wiggle room" to let us have some fun with the powerful items he creates, and (c) remove an confusion about what exactly is intended on the server;
and

(2) Institute a CHARACTER level cap for part One of EfU as well. I wouldn't have considered even suggesting something like that until I started to realize what is going to happen when HotU comes out and the Level Cap suddenly jumps to level 40. *shudders*

Just my two cents .......

[jkagie]

Yes, i agree about it being no fun in circumstances like that. As I said before that is an instance that diminishes the fun for others and is wrong. But what if he was following you? You wouldn't have been effected by his play and you would have still had fun.

Ok, so I get that the project is still under construction. I also see that there is a strong IC focus, but I still do not see a true RP as the roles one would play (or if you will, stimulus to react to) are not available.... yet. A PC that has an RP concept can be IC about it but so far the only interaction with the mod is that it is there. As for IC RP why the forced party? Some PCs should not party together. LG Paly with CE "whatever". I also see people talking in "party" to each other across the world. Not very good RP IMO.

Again, I am still curious as to why there are no penalties for dying. This was not addressed in your replies. True RP has penalties, EfU has none. Will these be added in the future? The PnP Undermountain was extremely magical and dangerous! But there is no danger here due to the lack of any penalties. So what is the reward that people get out of it?

As for the balance and the play testing, what is your baseline? x deaths for a player before they can clear a group or area? I always thought a balance was an equal shot of living and dying. After becoming a pincushion on lvl 11 in 2 seconds, I wondered if that area was still under construction. Other areas didn't seem balanced. The massive lizard fight is a great example. I guess I am wondering what your templates for balance are. This would give me a better understanding of what a "legal character" would be that would also have a moderate chance of not dying every 30 seconds.

FYI: I started without Uber items and surprisingly have received all of the ones I have from other players while on the EfU server. I assumed this was the norm. This happened well before the whole Uber item posts and complaints. I have not been on since, due to my other server's recent stabilities but will be back occassionally to see the new levels. When I do, I will most likely need some time to get new inventory from the "D man" if Uber items are still not to be used.

My login is the same as here.

[ 11-06-2003, 04:23 PM: Message edited by: jkagie ]

[Ziroc]

Originally posted by jkagie: Yes, i agree about it being no fun in circumstances like that. As I said before that is an instance that diminishes the fun for others and is wrong. But what if he was following you? You wouldn't have been effected by his play and you would have still had fun. Ok, so I get that the project is still under construction. I also see that there is a strong IC focus, but I still do not see a true RP as the roles one would play (or if you will, stimulus to react to) are not available.... yet. A PC that has an RP concept can be IC about it but so far the only interaction with the mod is that it is there. As for IC RP why the forced party? Some PCs should not party together. LG Paly with CE "whatever". I also see people talking in "party" to each other across the world. Not very good RP IMO. Again, I am still curious as to why there are no penalties for dying. This was not addressed in your replies. True RP has penalties, EfU has none. Will these be added in the future? The PnP Undermountain was extremely magical and dangerous! But there is no danger here due to the lack of any penalties. So what is the reward that people get out of it? As for the balance and the play testing, what is your baseline? x deaths for a player before they can clear a group or area? I always thought a balance was an equal shot of living and dying. After becoming a pincushion on lvl 11 in 2 seconds, I wondered if that area was still under construction. Other areas didn't seem balanced. The massive lizard fight is a great example. I guess I am wondering what your templates for balance are. This would give me a better understanding of what a "legal character" would be that would also have a moderate chance of not dying every 30 seconds. FYI: I started without Uber items and surprisingly have received all of the ones I have from other players while on the EfU server. I assumed this was the norm. This happened well before the whole Uber item posts and complaints. I have not been on since, due to my other server's recent stabilities but will be back occassionally to see the new levels. When I do, I will most likely need some time to get new inventory from the "D man" if Uber items are still not to be used. My login is the same as here.

You seem to be nit-picking small issues. Sorry, but I know I'm not going to please everyone. [img]smile.gif[/img] Oh well. If you have so many issues with the mod, find another that is to your liking, mate.

And you blame the mod's overall 'experience' based on what a few people did? (party talked ooc)? Come on...

Level 10 and 11 have been updated as of last night, and I went through there with a level 20 MAGE and ended up killing everyone. It took time, and I died a bunch, but nothing like it was like a few days ago. lol, I totally redesigned the desert warriors. And by level 10-11, your character should be close to level 20 if you play all the way through each level. When I finish up EfU, dying WILL have the same penalties that NWN's story had.

Anyway, enjoy the mod! If not, there are many others out there [img]smile.gif[/img] But nearly every single mod I've tried out, I felt like I was alone. And we're talking being in a CITY.. Not one npc walking around, people talking, ect... When I open Waterdeep's Docks, it'll be full of people walking, talking and plots to do. And once I finish up the Mod (when I complete level 15) then I'll be adding another new Mod I've been working on online. It's based in Waterdeep too. lol, (This was way before I found out HotU was also based there)--actually, it was 1991-92.. It's based on my PnP RPG I made back then.

[SpiritWarrior]

I do see his point in many areas. HCR however, IMHO is simply a complicated way of inconveniencing the player.

I went into a server the other day and attempted to rest, I was then told I can't rest on an empty stomach so would have to find food. Basically I followed the whole thing through (more out of curiousity/boredom) and it took me 15 minutes (real time) to be able to rest. That's a LONG time trying to rest and that's no fun! If I wanted problems I'd come back to my own life lol.

EFU is primarily hack n'slash. It's a run through the mountain on a killing spree. It's fun when you need it and when you don't you try an RP server or a good solo mod (that's what I do).

Ziroc I will say I am worried about your Waterdeep project. Thing is NWN's cannot actually handle huge amounts of NPC's. The lag even in the tavern at EFU is almost unbearable at times, with all the AI scripts firing etc. Every computer/video card experiences this lag regardless of age/manufacture. To do justice to a city like Waterdeep is in theory great but in practice, impossible. You are talking hundreds of NPC's not to mention the individial scripts to denote personality, action and behaviours. Your best bet would be to section the areas off at the very least and really try to cut down on needless bodies.

As a side, why don't u just script a hack-stripper OnCleintEntry? Most servers have one.

[Ziroc]

Originally posted by SpiritWarrior: I do see his point in many areas. HCR however, IMHO is simply a complicated way of inconveniencing the player. I went into a server the other day and attempted to rest, I was then told I can't rest on an empty stomach so would have to find food. Basically I followed the whole thing through (more out of curiousity/boredom) and it took me 15 minutes (real time) to be able to rest. That's a LONG time trying to rest and that's no fun! If I wanted problems I'd come back to my own life lol. EFU is primarily hack n'slash. It's a run through the mountain on a killing spree. It's fun when you need it and when you don't you try an RP server or a good solo mod (that's what I do). Ziroc I will say I am worried about your Waterdeep project. Thing is NWN's cannot actually handle huge amounts of NPC's. The lag even in the tavern at EFU is almost unbearable at times, with all the AI scripts firing etc. Every computer/video card experiences this lag regardless of age/manufacture. To do justice to a city like Waterdeep is in theory great but in practice, impossible. You are talking hundreds of NPC's not to mention the individial scripts to denote personality, action and behaviours. Your best bet would be to section the areas off at the very least and really try to cut down on needless bodies. As a side, why don't u just script a hack-stripper OnCleintEntry? Most servers have one.

I'm looking for one right now!

The City of people isn't a problem, there won't be crowds of npc's, just enough to make it feel alive. Plus, they don't all load at once. You notice as you walk, other people appear--caching them.

I know the Tavern is pretty big, and busy, but everyone I talk to says it's the best tavern they've ever seen in a mod. What kind of system do ya have? On my 1.9Ghz and 2.4Ghz I don't have lag at all (unless you have like 4 players in there running around)

[SpiritWarrior]

Originally posted by Ziroc: quote: Originally posted by SpiritWarrior: I do see his point in many areas. HCR however, IMHO is simply a complicated way of inconveniencing the player. I went into a server the other day and attempted to rest, I was then told I can't rest on an empty stomach so would have to find food. Basically I followed the whole thing through (more out of curiousity/boredom) and it took me 15 minutes (real time) to be able to rest. That's a LONG time trying to rest and that's no fun! If I wanted problems I'd come back to my own life lol. EFU is primarily hack n'slash. It's a run through the mountain on a killing spree. It's fun when you need it and when you don't you try an RP server or a good solo mod (that's what I do). Ziroc I will say I am worried about your Waterdeep project. Thing is NWN's cannot actually handle huge amounts of NPC's. The lag even in the tavern at EFU is almost unbearable at times, with all the AI scripts firing etc. Every computer/video card experiences this lag regardless of age/manufacture. To do justice to a city like Waterdeep is in theory great but in practice, impossible. You are talking hundreds of NPC's not to mention the individial scripts to denote personality, action and behaviours. Your best bet would be to section the areas off at the very least and really try to cut down on needless bodies. As a side, why don't u just script a hack-stripper OnCleintEntry? Most servers have one.

I'm looking for one right now!

The City of people isn't a problem, there won't be crowds of npc's, just enough to make it feel alive. Plus, they don't all load at once. You notice as you walk, other people appear--caching them.

I know the Tavern is pretty big, and busy, but everyone I talk to says it's the best tavern they've ever seen in a mod. What kind of system do ya have? On my 1.9Ghz and 2.4Ghz I don't have lag at all (unless you have like 4 players in there running around) [/QUOTE]Yeah I have played EFU on two systems, one high end (brand new 2.3ghz Geforce 4 ti, 512 mb ram) and one low end (800mhz, 512mb, Geforce 2mx) and there has been terrible lag at times in the tavern. All NPC's are cached but in an area like the tavern there are many NPC's in the same area so the engine has no choice but to load them. Anything within your view has to load - this is the reason for the 'fog of war'.
This along with firing scripts, vfx on weapons and placeables, placed sounds, NPC sounds etc. can make for serious lag. Other people here on the forum have experienced this with me (I mean at the exact same time). I am aware that the loading is all cached but again many NPC's in one area or a bunch of them together in one place will cause a lag-jump on the best of systems as the loading of scripts/appearances/vfx is forced. This is the game engine and cannot be helped. This has also been confirmed by George over at Bioware. It is not connection lag but video lag. The connection lag is yet another issue and I remember there was one time myself and someone else in EFU had no choice but to leave as the lag was so severe due to so many things goiong on and the bandwidth being taken up by about 7 other players in there.

The solution is to space things/people out. You seem to have it right though for your idea of wateredeep. "Just enough to make it feel alive" is all one needs. Nothing more, nothing less.

[TheCrimsomBlade]

I must be one lucky stiff. I use A pent 4/1.8 GIG with an ATI Radeon 7500 AIW just for all my NWN MODS and on line game play and so far I have never experienced lag except when EfU was very new and there were 20 PC's all on the first three levels all doing things at the same time. At that time Ziroc still was using his lap top for the server.
I have watched EfU grow for along time knowing that ziroc was allowing us to play as he built, and knowing that it was still in the development stages.
He let us all play so we could test all the levels to find any bugs or problems, that way he could get the main structure of EfU correct along time befor putting the quests in that went along with the game.
EfU may look like a hack and slash game to most that stop in. Those of us that know it's not finished yet Know that ziroc has a method to what looks like madness.
I have faith in the "Z" man and once he inplants the quests and scrips everything will make more sense. At that time I think all the Umber PC's will stop showing up because you wont be able to go to the next level until the quest on the level your on has been completed and if the umbers show up and kill everything they wont be able to get to the next level and ruin it for everyone else.
For now everyone should enjoy the fact that you can run free and explore all the levels, because I don't think its going to be so easy later, after level 15 is completed and the scrips get put into place it's going to get better.
Everybody needs to just hang in there, it will be done and done right. At that time you can Post your thoughts on weather it's an RPG or just Hack an slash.
SEE YA IN THE MOUNTAIN

[ 11-07-2003, 09:07 PM: Message edited by: TheCrimsomBlade ]