Satanism

[Yorick]

Originally posted by The Hunter of Jahanna: Speaking of the 10 comandments , wasnt Mary Saint Josephs WIFE?? So by god makeing her pregnant with Jesus he was commiting adultery with another mans wife!!

No.

Get your facts straight before you launch a tirade.

Secondly, while God was on the earth (Y'shua) he did not sin.
You can hardly expect rules designed for humans to contain the uncontainable creator. What are you thinking?

The commandments were part of an agreement between God and the people of Israel. If they kept them, he would be their God.

He had his own part of the deal to keep.

Your protestations are like looking at a recording contract and screaming hypocrisy because the record company don't have to perform any songs!

[ 05-28-2002, 09:42 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]

[The Hunter of Jahanna]

You can hardly expect rules designed for humans to contain the uncontainable creator. What are you thinking?

Acctualy I can. The do as I say , not as I do philosphy doesnt realy fly with me. If you are going to make a rule you want me to follow you had better set the example by following it yourself. Thats called leadership or if you have a young nipper its called parenting

The commandments were part of an agreement between God and the people of Israel. If they kept them, he would be their God.

Well if thats the case then I can sleep easy knowing that Gods deal wasnt meant for me anyway. As for the rest of you , your ALL screwed because I dont see too many people on the forum from Isreal.

[ 05-28-2002, 07:10 PM: Message edited by: The Hunter of Jahanna ]

[caleb]

Originally posted by The Hunter of Jahanna: As for the rest of you , your ALL screwed because I dont see too many people on the forum from Isreal.

OI! Now im all viclept

[Attalus]

I haven't posted on this thread before, but there are a couple of inacccuricies that I'd like to clear up. St. Mary was NOT St. Joseph's wife when she became pregnant with Jesus, she was merely his fiance. He was going to "put her away," ie., call the ceremony off when an angel told him of the miracle. And, the Commandment did not say, "Thou shalt not kill" in the original Hebrew, but, "Thou shall do no murder." which is an entirely different kettle of fish. There is nowhere in the Bible where God rebukes killing in battle, for instance, just as killing. Also, executions were not condemned, though Jesus saved the woman taken in adultery from death by stoning. Good post, Cerek, BTW.

[Yorick]

Originally posted by The Hunter of Jahanna: quote: You can hardly expect rules designed for humans to contain the uncontainable creator. What are you thinking?

Acctualy I can. The do as I say , not as I do philosphy doesnt realy fly with me. If you are going to make a rule you want me to follow you had better set the example by following it yourself. Thats called leadership or if you have a young nipper its called parenting

The commandments were part of an agreement between God and the people of Israel. If they kept them, he would be their God.

Well if thats the case then I can sleep easy knowing that Gods deal wasnt meant for me anyway. As for the rest of you , your ALL screwed because I dont see too many people on the forum from Isreal.[/QUOTE]Did you even read what I said? He did follow the rules while he was on earth.

Secondly, the agreement was between God and Israel. Jesus existence and death enabled everyone else to live outside those laws (under grace) and have a relationship with God as well.

Why don't you lose your anger and look at the information with a cool head instead of knee jerk anger.

I noticed you didn't comment on your innacuracy concerning Joseph and Mary's marital status.

[Cerek the Barbaric]

Another good Post, Aviendha, with several good, thought-provoking questions.

Originally posted by Aviendha: Thank you once again for the discussion. I truly am interested in your point of view, and am amazed with your honesty and your ability to handle other peoples constant denial of your beliefs. I must continue with this though, as I have many more questions. Thanks for the link, but to be honest, I just hate receiving information in that fashio. I would much prefer to have a two way discussion about such important things.

I listed that site because it gives very good answers to most FAQ's concerning Christianity and the Bible. It documents the proper verses and the answers are relatively short and concise. I - on the other hand - tend to "ramble on" quite a bit and get off topic when I give examples. I just listed the site as a source for finding clear, concise answers from a Biblical perspective. I'll ALWAYS be willing to have a two-way discussion with you and answer any questions you have as best as I can.

The dinosaurs is an interesting topic for you to raise. If the bible is completely literal as you have suggested in your post, then God created the world in 7 days. Man was created on the 7th. Now are these days supposed to be literal? We wouldn’t want to have exceptions to the rule, so I will take it that they are. Did the dinosaurs only live for a couple of days without humans beings in existence. It seems very unlikely that man would have existed since the begininng of the dinosaurs, and in fact, science has proved that this is simply not the case. I have had many christians tell me that they don’t believe the dinosaurs even existed, because the bible makes not mention of them. Are they kidding? You obviously believe that they did, and therefore that they, like all other creatures of that time existed when the flood came, hence your explanation of their extinction. Well if they existed at the time, why were they not included in the animals that Noah put on the Ark. Because they were too big? Because they were too dangerous? Because they weren’t one of God’s elite? The elephant obviously got on there! As did the tiger, the platypus, the Cobalt Blue Tinctorius frog and the Stuthio Camelus. Do you really believe that Noah and the dinosaurs existed at the same time, but it was God’s will that Noah ignore the dinosaurs in his collection of animals for the Ark and just go for the easier ones to catch?

Very good question again...and one that many people use as "proof" that the Bible is not literal. Dinosaurs ARE mentioned in the Bible - specifically the Book of Job. It mentions a "mammoth creature with a tail as large as the great cedar tree". Many poeple believe that - since it the word "mammoth" is used - this account refers to an elephant. However, no elephant has ever had "a tail as large as the great cedar tree".

So, how did dinosaurs get on the Ark (which they would have HAD to do, since Job was born long after Noah). Again, the site I "linked" in the earlier message gives a great accounting of how the Ark could have housed ALL the animals PLUS enough food to feed them. For starters, it never said that Noah gathered adult animals. The site suggests that younger specimans were collected of the larger species (dinosaurs, elephants, etc). It also gives the exact dimensions of the Ark and the "storage areas" for animals and food. The way it is explained, the animals would only have occupied about 1/3 of the Arks total space, leaving the rest available for storage of feed.

And the natural evolution for this discussion must now move onto…well, Evolution. I went to the museum the other day. It has a whole section on the evolution of man from apes. Now if man did evolve from apes, that puts a pretty big hole in the literal theory you have of the bible. It states that God created man out of his image on day 7, and that Eve was created out of one of Adam’s ribs, not long after. It does not allow for evolution. Once again, Christians tell me that they don’t believe in the apes to man evolution theory, but we see the same sort of evolution amongst many other animal species. We also have an unbelievable amount of scientific evidence that points to this evolution process. Surely, when there is physical proof of evolution right in front of our faces, we cannot simply dismiss it!

This is a good point, and one that I personally don't have a satisfactory answer for (not that I believe in Evolution, just that I wouldn't be able to provide a convincing argument against it based on my own knowledge). So, I again defer to Christian Answers site. They explain that there are 2 significant "missing links" in the Evolutionary chain. Scientists agree with this and admit they have not found any skeletal remains that could conclusively be deemed the "missing link". Remains were found a few years ago that were reputed to finally be the fabled "link", but scientists admitted that (after studying it), they couldn't unequiviocally label it as such.

So....according to Christian Answers, the Missing Links are just that....still missing.

It seems that anything can be explained by the bible if you really want to. You can take something completely out of context to the advantage of a discussion, or read into something in a very abstract way to find the answer you seek. The Horroscopes in the morning paper are designed to work in the same way. Allowing you to get whatever it is that you want out of them.

I'll grant you that one. The MOST important thing to do when quoting Bible verses is to keep them in context. Most statements that appear contradictory can be shown not to be once the reader understands the complete context in which the verses appear. Some Biblical stories span several chapters, and the reader must go all the way back to the beginning to understand the full situation.

I’m going to tell you a story. I was struggling to find a career path. I tried different things, University, accounting, amongst other things, without finding something that I liked. I was getting very down about it and then one day, I got offered a job in IT which I had always wanted. I had no experience and no qualifications, but I went for it and got it. Now by all means, I consider this to be a great stroke of luck. If I were a Christian, I would definitely say that God was watching over me and looking after me. I’m not, so I just feel really lucky. Why must Christians, whenever anything good ever happens, say that it was God’s hand, and that they couldn’t have done it without God. We see Olympic athletes who win a gold medal, the first thing they say is, “I just want to thank God for making this happen to me. Oh thank you God! I couldn’t have done this without you.” Hey guess what! The athlete did all the training, all the hard work, and when they finally get exactly what they deserve, they say that it had nothing to do with there own effort, and in fact, it was just God’s will. What, did God not like the guy who came second as much?

I'll address the story about our respective job offers first.

Several years ago, I had a situation similar to yours. I was working as a dishwasher and one of my friends worked in the Purchasing Dept. of the local hospital. I thought that would be a fun job..especially since it would pay better and have MUCH better insurance benefits than the restaurant where I worked. Within a year, my friend had left the hospital and I eventually got the job he left...the one I had been wanting for months. Did I thank God and give Him the credit? Actually no. I felt that He provided an opportunity, but there was another co-worker at the restaurant who also worked at the hospital and she was the one who told me about the job. It was a great step-up for me...but the circumstances were VASTLY different than when I got the managers job at a different facility. I wanted the original job at the hospital, but I DID have another job that was paying my bills. The second time around, I had prayed earnestly the night before after going through a veeery long period of severe financial difficulty. It was the TIMING, more than anything, that PROVED it was an answer to my prayer. I wanted the other job and eventually got it. But I needed the second job and got it the DAY AFTER praying about it.

AFA athletes are concerned, "Giving thanks to God" is a trend that started several years ago. As you say, it is said SO often that I have to wonder who is being sincere and who is just being "trendy". But those that are sincere DO have a valid point. God has given them a gift of physical skill that few others possess. And - in most Olympic sports - there are always one or two competitors that are simply head-and-shoulders above the competition because of their physical skills. There are many great soccor players in the world today, but none have ever matched the effortless grace of Pele' - he was just born with a God-given natural talent for soccor.

Does that mean that God likes the other - lesser talented players - less. Absolutely not. He gives each of us gifts according to His desires and plan. I have NO chance of EVER being competitive in any type of physical sport...that's just the way God made me. However, he has given me gifts in other areas that suit HIS purposes (rather than mine). Certainly, I would've loved being a "beefy hunk athlete" in high school, but God had other plans for me and I can honostly say I am very happy with the person I have become under His Guidance.

September 11! Why did 1000’s of people get killed while they working? Christian Answer : God works in mysterious ways! September 11! How did all those people that survived get out of the building? Christian Answer : It was God’s divine hand! It doesn’t matter what happens, Christians can explain anything by using these two statements to suit there purposes. Now if we looked at it from the enemies viewpoint, they may reverse the statements to suit there purposes!

True enough. That's because Christians are often afraid to admit that we can't understand why God would allow something like September 11 to occur. But don't forget, there is another player in the game that likes to remain hidden. Satan was the orchestrator of the attack. It serves his purpose well because it gives non-believers MORE reason NOT to believe and it also causes some believers to question their faith in God.

Could God have prevented Sept. 11? Yes, I believe He could have.
Then why didn't He? I truly wish I knew. Maybe it's one of the precursor events to Armageddon, or maybe it serves some other purpose in His overall plan for mankind. I personally have no idea what it could be but it doesn't change my trust in God.

Your other example of a 29 year old dying, and the purpose of that death also fits this category perfectly. He dies, and people question why. Your answer is that it was so other people could come to see God, including yourself. You happen to be talking about a Christian on this occasion, but what if he was not! I wonder what your answer would be then. God works in mysterious ways perhaps? Further to this, I wonder how many of the 400 people that attended the funeral came away with the same resolve as you. Personally, I know people who have turned away from God when something like that happens.

That is - indeed - quite possible. Somebody else may have turned away from God because of thier friends'death. I know that his widow (who was a friend of mine) did NOT turn away from God, even though this was the second husband she had lost. I also know that it gave her some comfort several years later when I told her that I had been Saved because of her loss. That allowed her to see that - even in death - he was serving God.

Still, you're right that others could have had a completely opposite reaction.

You also mention that it is the Holy Spirit that helps you to understand the Bible. Why isn’t it your brain? Do you not think you are capable of making those assessments yourself? I’m sure I have made may point fairly clearly now!

I am not capable of making spiritual assessments with my brain. I've never been an avid Bible reader, mainly because I had trouble understanding it. However, once I was Saved, it was amazing how much more sense it made to me. With the guidance of the Holy Spirit, I discovered the lessons God was trying to teach me through His Word.

Let me ask you this, if you went to the library and picked up a book on Quantam Physics and sat down to read it, do you think you will gain a full understanding of everything written in it. Probably not. Most people would have to take a class to study the subject and have the professor explain the Laws of Physics and how they can be applied to our everyday world. That is how the Holy Spirit works regarding the Bible. What was confusing before now makes perfect sense.

I have a question for you Cerek! What is heaven like? Is it a place where everything that is good will happen. I believe this to be impossible, as everyone has their own opinion of what good is! If I believe that Soccer is a really great thing, then will I be able to play Soccer in Heaven. I mean I should be able to score a goal every time I kick the ball because only good things happen in Heaven. But then again, what about the goaly. He would always stop the ball! Oh well, I guess there's no soccer in Heaven. So what is there? Fluffy white clouds? Futhermore, if I love someone but they are not a Christian and I am, how can Heaven be perfect if that person would not be there with me? If we are striving so much to get to Heaven, surely we have some idea as to what is there!

Heaven is a perfect, spiritual paradise where there is no more pain, sorrow, suffering, or grief. We will be freed from our frail mortal shells and be given a perfect new form (complete with wings - HOW COOL IS THAT?!?!). However, Heaven's perfection is defined by GOD'S WILL, not ours. There is a verse in the Bible that says (paraphrased) "worship the Lord and He will grant the desires of your heart". However, that doesn't work the way most people might think. Instead of giving us what our hearts desire now (like winning the lotto or getting a sports car), it means that OUR desires will become MORE like GOD'S desires as we grow in our Christian faith. We will desire the same things HE desires, and that is what will be granted. Heaven will be the same way. Our definition of perfection will be the same as God's.

You mentioned loved ones that weren't Christians and how could Heaven be Perfect if our loved ones weren't with us. God addresses this issue also. He acknowledges that some of our friends and family will choose to reject Him and will - therefore - be cast into Hell. We WILL be aware of that (for a time). In the End Times, all the hosts of Heaven will see their loved ones and friends that did not accept God as they are being sent to the Lake of Fire. The Bible says there will be great weeping and wailing for the lost souls as they depart, but that God will then remove the memory and pain of that loss - very similar to the grieving process we go through now when we lose a loved one.

I will once again leave this post with another question. It is one of the biggest things that I struggle with, and I have touched on it in my previous posts. I strongly believe that you cannot make yourself believe something without deluding yourself. If I wanted to believe that I could fly, then it doesn’t matter how much I told myself that it was true, and how much I ended up believing it to be true, it would still be a delusion of the truth. I cannot fly! I believe that I could even make myself absolutely believe that I could if I told myself enough. That is part of the human nature. It’s like when people do something wrong. In the time after they did it, they will try to convince themselves that it in fact did not happen. They can even get to the point where they themselves, truly believe that it did not happen. I do not believe in God. As you can see, I have tried. I continue to try. I want to understand. But I haven’t even come close. You can tell me as much as you want that God exists and that I should ask him for forgiveness, but in my heart, I do not believe in him. If I was to suddenly decide that, just in case it is true, I’m going to be safe and ask God for forgiveness, he would know that I do not believe in him. Beyond that, I would be deluding myself. The only way that I can see, that I would become a Christian, is if God gives me direct proof of his existence. To this point in my life, this has not happened. If it does not happen before I die, and there is in fact a God, then I will go to Hell. Now one of three things could happen as far as I can see. 1. God could give me my own personal sign of his existence. 2. God will give me no sign, and I will burn in Hell for all of eternity 3. God will give me no sign, but he will give me entrance into heaven, because he know’s that he gave me no choice. Number 1 seems to be unrealistic as you say that he has given us all the proof that we need and now we have to make a choise Number 2 seems worse, because if God is a merciful God, which the bible says he is, and he created me knowing that I would not believe in him without proof, which he will not give me, then that’s a completely hypocritical concept. It seems that I will have to cling to number 3. Just give up and hope for the best when I die. Later, Aviendha.

You are correct that it would be futile for you to ask God for forgiveness when you don't even believe He exists. God knows your heart and your doubts. So you should focus on that first. He realizes that you require "proof" of His existence so that is where you should start. Christians don't get into Heaven because they ask for forgiveness of thier sins....they get into Heaven because they recognize God for who He is and they accept Him as the Lord of thier life.

You cannot ask forgiveness of an authority you don't believe in. Therefore, concentrate instead on asking God to show you that He does exist. He knows your heart, understands your doubts, and realizes exactly what type of "proof" you require.

The BEST way to get the proof you need is to pray for it. God hears ALL prayers that are offered to Him, whether the person is a believer or not. Don't worry about "knowing how to pray the right way". Just be straightforward and sincere. Tell God the same thing you've told me, that you've TRIED to understand and believe in Him - and that you are STILL trying - but that you simply can't do it without some help from Him. God WILL hear your plea and He WILL give you an answer.

[ 05-29-2002, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: Cerek the Barbaric ]