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Old 05-22-2002, 11:20 PM   #151
K T Ong
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Join Date: January 27, 2002
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
I think you're way off the mark there K.T. I have had many many discussions with "backslidden" christians, and found it only strengthened and illuminated my faith more. One should speak with both believers and the disgruntled. You've got to know where the holes are. Balance books with real life testimonies.

How many ex-Buddhists (now Christian) have you spoken with? As I said earlier, there's 14,000 odd meeting over at Jurong.

I don't feel I have to list a bibliography of the various biographies, commentraries and dissections of Buddhism, as they vary in source from secular/religious books, internet sites, print media, and temple propaganda. I certainly don't limit my research to one or two authors. That would be like getting my knowledge of Jesus from John Stott and the Apostle Peter alone.
Nor should you limit your research to such an extent that any Buddhist scholar could readily refute what you said regarding Buddhism. Go ahead. Ask any Buddhist scholar if what you said regarding Buddhism is correct. I'll bet you won't get an affirmative reply.

One wonders who's the one who's way off the mark. The issue at hand is not whom one has spoken to and how much one has read, but whether one has accurately understood Buddhism through all those sources, and which ones one should approach for that purpose.

One would presume you've known enough about me to judge that I haven't come to know that much about 'disgruntled' Buddhists, or to have read merely a couple authors. Gee, I don't know you're clairvoyant, Yorick! And certainly I can provide a full reading list for you -- I merely didn't wish to make my posts overly long. I believe I can't be all that ignorant of what Buddhism is all about if I had done a Masters in Chinese philosophy.

You may not like Buddhism but the least you can do is inform yourself as to what Buddhism actually teaches. Propagating inaccurate information about a religion you don't like is not exactly the right way to win people over to your own professed religion -- and not exactly a very civil thing to do, either. I'll repeat: please, pretty please, do your homework.

As for 14,000 ex-Buddhists becoming converts to Christianity in Singapore, the Friends of the Western Buddhist Order has thousands of centres all over the Western world. Don't believe me? Check out their website.

[ 05-23-2002, 12:42 AM: Message edited by: K T Ong ]
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Old 05-23-2002, 01:22 AM   #152
shadow dragon
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i would like to say something my pappay once told "me never talk about religion,weather,or politics"...awe hell why not argue over something that can't be changed,that being opinions,or beliefs
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Old 05-23-2002, 01:55 AM   #153
Yorick
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For starters, some cuts from a Buddhist site:

____________________________________________
Nirvana is ineffable. It cannot be described. Literally it means "blowing out," as if referring to a lamp. In nirvana, all "individual personality or ego ceases to exist and there is nothing to be reborn." (The Buddhist Tradition, 12) The conception of Nirvana differs in the Mahayana and Theravada sects.

_________________________________________

From a second site:

The two extremes were quite familiar to the Buddha. The first, sensual indulgence, experienced as a prince, and the second, mortification of the body, during the six years of ascetic practice prior to his enlightenment. The Pali words used to describe the two are very similar, with one notable exception: the first is judged to be "inferior and despicable" (hino ). This would imply that the second holds some merit; perhaps in consideration of the effort of denial, coupled with it's assumed goal of liberation. Those who pursue the first do so with the idea of an impermanent soul and either reject consequences or support the nihilistic idea - "death is the end of all, eat, drink and be merry." Those who pursue the second hold the idea of a permanent soul, one's true being, caged in a body. They feel that by minimising the body, truth must proportionately increase to the point of being released . The Buddha established a balance between these two which has evolved as a comprehensive philosophy and system of practice. It was - "knowledge of this middle path which gave vision, knowledge, calm, special kowledge, enlightenment, nibbana." What has come to be the philosophical hallmark of Buddhism is the principle of impersonality .

• The first truth is the truth of 'ill'. The Pali word is dukkha and there are many translations, none of which in English truly represent the meaning. The Buddha says "in this noble truth of dukkha described by me, immeasurable are the shades and details, immeasurable the implications ". The word most commonly used is 'suffering' but this doesn't really convey the full meaning. The word should awaken in our minds the underlying instability, unsatisfactoriness and potential misery inherent in existence. The whole purpose of the teaching is the ending of this dukkha;

• The second truth, the cause of ill, is a more explicit expansion of the idea behind grasping. The Pali term used is 'tanha ' and its usual translation is 'craving'.
The sutta mentions three forms of craving:
for sensual pleasure;
for becoming;
for un-becoming .
The meaning of these last two is often confused by being rendered variably as either birth or rebirth. As it is a key term in Buddhist thought I will offer my understanding of it in this context. On the immediate, experiential level I know only 'this', the present moment. When there is contact with a sense object suggesting the possibility of pleasure, there is likely a craving for, a wanting to own, that pleasure (object). There is then the craving to become (the owner of) that pleasure. This means, conversely, that I crave to un-become my present state (of not having/being 'that'). Inherent in wanting-to-be-that is not-wanting-to-be-this. This movement is an inclination to the not-yet-existing future, or past, and is 'becoming'. Thus is time born; me now and me 'later'. I will be, then I am born as that. Becoming is birth, un-becoming is death.

_____________________________________

From a third site:

The Buddha pointed out that whenever one is reborn, whether as a human beings, as an animal, or as a god, non of these states of existence is permanent. The average life span of the living beings in the six realms of existence differ but none of them lasts forever. Eventually, rebirth will take place. The realm into which one is reborn and one's conditions of rebirth are determined by one's past and present actions. This is the law of karma at work.

Beacuse of the force of their karma, people are born and reborn endlessly, in one realm of existence or in another. The Buddha declared that there is no permanent rest in this cycle of birth and death. It is only when one follows the Noble Eightfold path taught by the Buddha and eventually attains Nirvana, that one finally becomes free from this ceaseless cycle


[ 05-23-2002, 01:56 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]
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Old 05-23-2002, 02:00 AM   #154
Yorick
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Now, you may come back and argue that Nirvana is actually bliss and happiness, but that would be a subjective judgement based on ones values. I personally don't regard losing my personality, myself, my awareness as "blissfully happy." I call that obliteration of the self. Ceasing to exist as an entity.

That would be a horrifying reality for me.

[ 05-23-2002, 02:01 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]
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Old 05-23-2002, 02:12 AM   #155
Yorick
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Join Date: January 7, 2001
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Quote:
Originally posted by K T Ong:

As for 14,000 ex-Buddhists becoming converts to Christianity in Singapore, the Friends of the Western Buddhist Order has thousands of centres all over the Western world. Don't believe me? Check out their website.
These are not commited Christians leaving the faith.

The main worship leader at CHC, Poh, was a medium at one of the Buddhist temples for example. These are hardcore Buddhist/Taoist/Confucionists who left the faith.

Unlike with Buddhism, Christians are not born Christian. The westerners I've met who have become Buddhist have no idea what Christianity is. Some are Jewish, some have Roman Catholic parentage, but none have known the grace of Jesus Christ that removes a person from the laws of Karma, into liberty and freedom.

Also I have never in my life seen in one night, 1756 commited christians go down the front of a buddhsit gathering and give their lives to Siddartha.

The reverse happened at your national stadium.

This happened despite laws restricting public evangelism in Singapore.

So what's going on?

Anyhow, this was not meant to be a "my religions better than yours" discussion. I have no desire to convert you. What you believe is up to you, and I hope it makes you happy.

Hang on, with Buddhism you shouldn't be pursuing happiness should you? It'll lead to sadness and loss....

Well I hope you find whatever you are seeking then brother. [img]smile.gif[/img]
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Old 05-23-2002, 06:37 AM   #156
caleb
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Yorick how do you know that commited christians are not leaving the church? You cant possibly back that up....granted I cant prove they ARE either but what are ya gonna do huh Oh and most christians ARE born christians since alot of them are being baptised as babys or 8 year old kids and dont have a say in the matter. When a religion is imposed on people then you are going to see massive defection to another religion.
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Old 05-23-2002, 08:59 AM   #157
Yorick
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Quote:
Originally posted by caleb:
Yorick how do you know that commited christians are not leaving the church? You cant possibly back that up....granted I cant prove they ARE either but what are ya gonna do huh Oh and most christians ARE born christians since alot of them are being baptised as babys or 8 year old kids and dont have a say in the matter. When a religion is imposed on people then you are going to see massive defection to another religion.
Not all Christians believe in infant baptism, but those that do, believe that this 'covers' children until they are of the age where they can decide for themselves.

So a child that is baptised, yet never knows the grace of Jesus for themself is not what you'd consider a commited Christian.

I've noticed that in America particularly, but also in the west, there are many people who THINK they have checked out Christianity. We live in cultures influenced by Judeo-Christian principles, so the difference between Christ and no Christ is sometimes harder to see.

In somewhere like Singapore for example, where the majority (52%) are a merger of Buddhism/Taoism and Confucianism, the effect of Christ in an individual can be profound. Kids get kicked out of home for converting. Beaten. Yet after their lives drastically improve (productivity, demeanor, motivation, happiness) their parent check it out. City Harvest Church is filled with stories like that.

Following Christ is not like any other religion. There are no rituals to follow, there is no atonement or counterbalancing one needs to perform. Perfection is not desired nor aimed for. There is an acceptance of self, flaws and all, as being made, loved and forgiven by God, as we are.

Caleb, you brought up the question of Christians leaving the church.

Christians ARE the church. There is a school of thought that once someone invites Christ in their life, nothing can remove salvation. Nothing. People can, and do get fed up with traditional ways of meeting together, but there are many alternatives.

I went to a church where there was no regular preacher. Full of artists and countercultural people, dissention with whoever was speaking was encouraged. Members would speak themselves. Guests would speak. Truth was sought.

When a commited Christian leaves A church, they generally find another, even years later.

What K.T. is talking about, is people who are not even on the outskirts of knowing Jesus. I've spoken to many in such scenarios, and Churches get full every Christmas Day with "Christians?" who never set foot in the door any other day of the year.

What's that all about? What like, making sure you get that one service in each year, keeps your hand in the faith?

Jesus said he prefers someone to be hot or cold. "Lukewarm" people he'd prefer to spit out of his mouth.

[ 05-23-2002, 09:02 AM: Message edited by: Yorick ]
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Old 05-24-2002, 06:43 PM   #158
Chewbacca
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My buddah laughs at the dark view you cast on Buddism, Yorrick.
[img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]
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Old 05-24-2002, 08:28 PM   #159
Yorick
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Join Date: January 7, 2001
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Age: 52
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Quote:
Originally posted by Chewbacca:
My buddah laughs at the dark view you cast on Buddism, Yorrick.
[img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]
Siddartha is dead according to Theravada Buddhism. He's not helping anybody.

According to Mahayana, he never achieved Nirvana to help others.

That means he's helping people to achieve what he himself has not achieved. [img]smile.gif[/img]

So which is it?

Where do you stand?

Bodhisattvaless or Bodhisattva assisted?
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Old 05-24-2002, 11:49 PM   #160
Chewbacca
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Join Date: July 18, 2001
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Quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
quote:
Originally posted by Chewbacca:
My buddah laughs at the dark view you cast on Buddism, Yorrick.
[img]graemlins/hehe.gif[/img]
Siddartha is dead according to Theravada Buddhism. He's not helping anybody.

According to Mahayana, he never achieved Nirvana to help others.

That means he's helping people to achieve what he himself has not achieved. [img]smile.gif[/img]

So which is it?

Where do you stand?

Bodhisattvaless or Bodhisattva assisted?
[/QUOTE]tired intrepretations and factionalsim mean little to healthy practice of buddism. What matters is the unshakeable integrity of spirit and compassion that lays in the heart of Buddism. The practice of meditation in order to achieve a healthy state of mind and being is an admirsble goal. Like most religions, buddism contains pathways of transformation. A perspective on the idea that buddist practice seeks to destroy or alter oneself can be viewed this way.
Transforming ones mind of destructive thought patterns via meditation or prayer is a common spiritual practice. The art of forgivness be non-denominational. The transformation of the ego is aligned with this purpose. The eventual goal of a buddist is not self-annihalation, but self actualization, true individuality, and a sense of personal spiritual evolution.

An example:
One sits down and quiet your thoughts, focus on breathing, on being. Be aware of your consious and subconiuos thoughts. Close your eyes, but be careful not to get lost in a tangent of thought. Let go of the consious and subconsious thoughts, focus your mind on your body's breathing, slowly inhale thorugh your nose, hold a full breath and slowly exhale thorugh your mouth. Continue as you please...

Clear calm stillness and presence of mind is the outcome. Why is that such a destructive aim?

[ 05-25-2002, 12:04 AM: Message edited by: Chewbacca ]
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