Offensiveness and Censorship

[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Obviously I have been away from this forum recently, and admittedly have not caught up on many of the threads posted during my absence, but I want to share a few thoughts regarding some of the posts that I have read, and the attitude that seems to lie behind them.

I find it disturbing that there seems to be a tendency lately to scream that this or that post is "offensive" with the implication that it should be deleted.

People, lots of things are "offensive." I doubt there is hardly a point of view on any serious topic whatsoever that is not "offensive" to somebody in the world. If we are to start forbidding posts on the grounds that they are "offensive" to this or that member we might as well just forbid discussion of any serious topics whatsoever and all just hang out in Cloudy's Cafe.

This is not to say that I don't find certain things offensive. On the contrary, I certainly do. For instance, pics about showing people on fire are quite offensive to me. However, I don't think the answer lies in censoring such things. That is a dangerous road to start down, for there is no end to the list of things that are offensive to somebody somewhere.

I may not agree with what somebody says. I may even be offended by it. But I will defend to the death their right to say it. Open and honest discussion about such things is the only way we can ever hope to reach any sort of mutal understanding or agreement.

If an idea is offensive, then, imo, the best way to combat it is to explain why it is offensive, not seek to have the idea brushed under the rug and hidden from sight. Communication is the key. As others have said in other places on this forum, if we cannot hope to reach understanding of each other's positions even on a gaming forum like this, then truly there is no hope for the larger world in the long run.

I for one refuse to take such a pessimistic view of humanity and our ability to share and understand ideas.

Even hard core, diametrically opposed views at first can lead to greater understanding through the exercise of back and forth discussion. Sometimes the process is difficult and may take a long time. Progress can be hard to see. Emotions can obviously run high. There is nothing abnormal or necessarily evil about this at all. On the contrary, strong emotions at least show that people care about the world they live in. I would be far more worried about the fate of humanity if something as extreme as a friggin war did not produce passions, if we just sat around like emotionless robots talking just about what we had for breakfast this morning and sticking our heads in the sand regarding the life or death issues raging in the world, with all their profound implications for our lives and the lives of our children.

I must say I do not at all understand the attitude which somehow thinks that exploring such monumental issues must (or even can) be always done in the same tone we would use over a politely trivial conversation regarding whether to wear a blue sweater or a red one on any given day. God gave us passion for a reason, people. He gave us the ability to distinguish between what is trivial and what is important for a reason. These were not accidents, you know.

That said, I wish to stress that I am NOT saying we should go out of our way to jump down each other's throats or be rude or insulting to one another. Yes, tempers have flared periodically over this issue since the WTC attack. People have been quick to react to what somebody else has said in an angry fashion, instead of stepping back to cool off a bit before replying as they probably should have done. I certainly have been guilty of this myself. This is not necessary and we CAN disagree without being disagreeable. Clearly, a forum where all we did was shout and scream insults and obscenities at each other would achieve nothing useful whatsoever.

However, the opposite extreme seems equally useless to me, not to mention totally unrealistic. It strikes me as odd indeed that some seem to feel that such life shaking topics can and should be discussed without passion, or who get alarmed or think it unnatural that such discussions get heated from time to time.

If topics get heated, and we all know they do, then the solution is simple. Withdraw for a bit until you calm down enough so that you can return with a cooler and more productive approach. After all, losing your cool totally and resorting to mere mud slinging is not going to help your cause at all. It will only turn off the "other side" and prove counterproductive to what you are trying to achieve.

But for heaven sakes don't take the position that such topics should be banned because they can get heated from time to time, or don't think that passion about important topics is somehow abnormal or evil.

As for "personal" attacks, I agree with what others have said regarding this -- yes, try not to make attacks personal, but equally important on the other side is to try not to read the criticisms or points of others as a personal attack. It seems to me that some of what has been taken as "personal" attacks on this board has been instead people being overly sensitive to criticism of positions, to the point in some cases of people seeming to think that any criticism of what they are saying or the views they hold amounts to a "personal" attack.

I doubt anyone here has been the subject of more "personal" attacks on this board regarding the whole war issue and the debates about it than I. Even Ziroc has resorted to such (in a moment of weakness, no doubt -- no offense taken Ziroc, I have done as much in moments where I reacted angrily instead of waiting to cool down before posting) by at one point openly implying that I supported the terrorist cause.

Yes, I find such accusations offensive. Yes, I find many things that have been posted on this forum regarding the war offensive. And yet at the same time I think it vitally important that people feel free to post openly and honestly what they really feel, and if they think I am a traitor then I would fight to the death for their right to say so (even though such accusations are clearly misguided ). Being open and honest with each other about what we really feel is the only way we are ever going to make any sort of progress at all in understanding one another.

And the surprising thing, surprising at least to those who seem most alarmed by serious discussions and the passions which inevitably shine through from time to time, is that heated, passionate, serious discussions can in the end bring people closer together, with greater respect and understanding of one another.

For example, I have butted heads with Yorick quite a bit in the past over the subject of religion. Our discussions have been quite heated at times. But after the dust has settled, I found that I had a greater respect and understanding for where he is coming from. I feel closer to him now as a direct result of our open, honest, and frank discussions.

That seems to me to be a far better alternative than a mere shallow, artifically polite, and utterly false pretending to agree. If any foundation or bridge is to be built between people, it must first and foremost be built upon honesty.

All this is not to criticize certain people (this means, for example, you, Cloudy, since I am sure you are probably reading it that way) for being upset enough with the "tone" of some of the discussions to want to leave. On the contrary, that sort of thing is also a natural reaction, a natural part of the ebb and flow of discussions about such serious issues, and one that I also have felt here recently, as you should well know from our conversations during the few days before my trip to England.

Even actually leaving for awhile is not necessarily a bad thing. It is quite a natural reaction to being too long in the fray. People do need breaks from such heated topics from time to time. One cannot dwell only on serious topics, without diversion, or one would go quite insane. There is nothing unnatural or shameful at all about neeeding to take a break from such things from time to time.

All this is just a way of trying to say: Cheer up, people of Ironworks, things are not so dark and gloomy here as some seem to fear. If things are not like they were in the "good old happy days" where all everybody did was talk about pleasant topics in pleasant tones, then the explanation is quite simple: there wasn't a friggin war going on then

Cheers and a good day to all

[Sir Kenyth]

Good point Dio. I know I have been refraining from posting here for quite a while. I noticed that I was tired of arguing the same things over and over again. My posts were becoming unproductive "barbs" thrown at whomever baited a flame. I certainly don't want to get banned. Saz wagged a finger at me once and that was enough. I don't think censoring is going to help. The best thing that could happen already did. The topics were put in a different forum. This way the faint of heart can avoid undue stress. As long as we refrain from vulgar language and bigotry, I think things will be just fine. Many of the people posting here look for this type of heated discussion to hone their debating skills while arguing their point. No harm done in my book.

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Member of ORT
Master Barbsman and weilder of the razor wit!
Official royal toad! Ribbit! Ribbet I say!

The true secret to happiness is not having what you want, it's wanting what you have!

[J.J.]

Pumpkin, I have not always agreed with you, but what you have put up here is exactly what I wish i had time to do, *applause, foot stamping, cheering*

I don't really care if someone disagrees with me. I served in the military in part because I believe that we all have the right to speak our minds, and I find it a horrific thought that some think we oughtn't.

The proponents of Political Correctness and that every idea is equal in value and should be expressed(excepting the values that this country was founded on, because it was a bunch of rich white guys who did it) *oops* are starting to emerge from their PC bunkers where they have gone to ground. It behooves us to make sure they are met with the black and white existence of good and evil.

We can't make them think differently, but , by god , we should be able to argue them into stunned submission so the rangers can tranquilize, collar, and remove them safely to their refuge in southern california.

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.now, if that last joke has left you upset, well, I feel bad for you. Here, let me light a candle for you, now concentrate on your breathing, slow and steady...think nice thoughts.....
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Amanda's Dad-Best Damn Job, Period.

Official Pin-Up Girl Massager of the O.L.D. C.O.O.T.S. Clan
To Err is Human To Forgive Divine, However Neither is U.S. Marine Corps Policy.

[Sir Kenyth]

Originally posted by J.J.: We can't make them think differently, but , by god , we should be able to argue them into stunned submission so the rangers can tranquilize, collar, and remove them safely to their refuge in southern california.

*Giggle*

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Member of ORT
Master Barbsman and weilder of the razor wit!
Official royal toad! Ribbit! Ribbet I say!

The true secret to happiness is not having what you want, it's wanting what you have!

[Fljotsdale]

Sigh. I wasn't going to post in here again but first Ziroc posted a picci I HAD to look at, and now Diogenes has forced me to say:

WOW!! I WISH I'D SAID THAT!!

To quote Yorick's favourite word:

AWESOME!

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Dubbed Queen of the Illuminati by Diogenes.

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by J.J.: Pumpkin, I have not always agreed with you, but what you have put up here is exactly what I wish i had time to do, *applause, foot stamping, cheering* I don't really care if someone disagrees with me. I served in the military in part because I believe that we all have the right to speak our minds, and I find it a horrific thought that some think we oughtn't. The proponents of Political Correctness and that every idea is equal in value and should be expressed(excepting the values that this country was founded on, because it was a bunch of rich white guys who did it) *oops* are starting to emerge from their PC bunkers where they have gone to ground. It behooves us to make sure they are met with the black and white existence of good and evil. We can't make them think differently, but , by god , we should be able to argue them into stunned submission so the rangers can tranquilize, collar, and remove them safely to their refuge in southern california. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .now, if that last joke has left you upset, well, I feel bad for you. Here, let me light a candle for you, now concentrate on your breathing, slow and steady...think nice thoughts..... . . .

Well JJ, not offended, just thinking it's poor taste and a wee bit provocative when there ARE people who have been offended or upset in this forum. You usually know better than that!

Dio.. I will answer you.. but it's gonna be a while before my 'passionate' side stops telling me to take out a contract on your disspasionate self

Actually, I'm at work, so I can't concentrate on long, serious postings... much as I'd like to just now.

Cloudy

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Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan
CloudDragon of the OHF
Storm-Queen
Raven's Cloud
StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever
"To sleep, perchance to dream..."

[Ryanamur]

Originally posted by Cloudbringer: Cloudy

Cloudy, glad to see you're back... though it's probably temporary. See you again soon

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I'm the Wanderer without a clan... I bring justice without favorism. Though you may not agree with it, my judgement is final... and inconsequential

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by Sir Kenyth: Good point Dio. I know I have been refraining from posting here for quite a while. I noticed that I was tired of arguing the same things over and over again. My posts were becoming unproductive "barbs" thrown at whomever baited a flame. I certainly don't want to get banned. Saz wagged a finger at me once and that was enough. I don't think censoring is going to help. The best thing that could happen already did. The topics were put in a different forum. This way the faint of heart can avoid undue stress. As long as we refrain from vulgar language and bigotry, I think things will be just fine. Many of the people posting here look for this type of heated discussion to hone their debating skills while arguing their point. No harm done in my book.

Segregation..hmmmm..why do I think bad things when I hear anyone say it's the best way to 'protect' some other group? I appreciate a good discussion, I do not care for 'barbs' and nastiness for the sake of arguing a point.

When I left IW, I fully intended to stay away because it is that very attitude "If you don't like being beaten on then stay away from the bullies" that irritated the hell out of me! In my book, the bullies should be taught the proper way to deal with aggression, not the rest of us being forced to avoid a street we might want to shop on! I've just seen no fewer than three people post that they are essentially intimidated by the flaming and baiting in this forum even though they would like to participate in meaningful discourse. That is a disgusting situation in my NOT so very humble opinion.

Oh and Dio? I am INCREDIBLY passionate on that topic so does that mean I'm not 'oversensitive' ?


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Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan
CloudDragon of the OHF
Storm-Queen
Raven's Cloud
StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever
"To sleep, perchance to dream..."

[Cloudbringer]

Originally posted by Ryanamur: Cloudy, glad to see you're back... though it's probably temporary. See you again soon

Thank you and yes, you may be right. If people keep insisting it's ok to hurt one another just because there's a war on, yes.. I will think twice about participating in that atmosphere.

I appreciate a 'spirited' debate/discussion. I do NOT think one has to be excessively or unnaturally 'sweet' to do that and remain civil. I DO think that telling person they are wrong once is sufficient, hammering at them over and over with the same moot argument is hardly intelligent, it's pride and arrogance. Unwilling to let go, they inflict damage on anyone who disagrees.

Well I had best stop or my own lengthy commentary will never be posted in one place.. and I have a feeling all my short comments here will be blipped over by the crew of bulldozers who seem oblivious to the simple concept of common decency in public forums. NO, not 'fake' agreements and pats on the back, just courtesy and acceptance of other views as valid for the one who holds them.


Cloudy

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Raindancer of the Laughing Hyenas Clan
CloudDragon of the OHF
Storm-Queen
Raven's Cloud
StormCloud of the Black Knight: Heart Mind Soul Forever
"To sleep, perchance to dream..."

[Diogenes Of Pumpkintown]

Originally posted by Cloudbringer: When I left IW, I fully intended to stay away because it is that very attitude "If you don't like being beaten on then stay away from the bullies" that irritated the hell out of me! In my book, the bullies should be taught the proper way to deal with aggression, not the rest of us being forced to avoid a street we might want to shop on! I've just seen no fewer than three people post that they are essentially intimidated by the flaming and baiting in this forum even though they would like to participate in meaningful discourse. That is a disgusting situation in my NOT so very humble opinion.

Cloudy, I am most definitely not advocating an acceptance of any sort of "bully" mentality.

I have seen many such allusions lately to "bullys" or "mongrels" or some otherwise vaguely referred to group of troublemakers. Not once have the people making such vague statements named specific names or given specific examples of what they are talking about. Such comments do nothing at all to help the situation, imo. They only serve to further an atmosphere of paranoia and mistrust.

By all means, point to specific examples of what you are talking about so can all know exactly what you mean and hopefully discuss it and learn from it. Vague allegations are not helping the situation at all.