8 year old "raped" and "buried alive" in FLORIDA ....

[Timber Loftis]

Azred, just to let you know -- our former governor in Illinois commuted all the sentences when it looked like the "wrongfully convicted" number was approaching 10% or more. You gotta admit, that's a pretty piss poor accuracy rate.

[Azred]

Yes, I recall that happening. 10% is really poor performance, the kind of which will get you flunked out of school or fired from your job.

My earlier comments vis-a-vis deterring crime...I meant that no system has ever deterred all crime, because crime exists in every society at every stage of societal development. Some people who might have committed a crime have not done so and will not do so because they don't want to risk suffering punishment should they be caught.

Shamrock_uk...always in good company here. [img]graemlins/thumbsup.gif[/img]

Jorath, if world leaders would register here and simply listen to us then many problems would be solved. [img]graemlins/petard.gif[/img]

[wellard]

Originally posted by Azred: My earlier comments vis-a-vis deterring crime...I meant that no system has ever deterred all crime, because crime exists in every society at every stage of societal development. Some people who might have committed a crime have not done so and will not do so because they don't want to risk suffering punishment should they be caught. [img]graemlins/petard.gif[/img]

That’s always been the problem Azred, what to do after the crime has been committed? We really are looking at the problem from the wrong angle IMO. We should be asking what could be done to prevent such acts in the future? Until we address the desire / urge issue and offer preventative solutions then no matter the punishment we are always playing catch up with a trail of human victims in our wake.

Lets all try thinking outside the square and talk about prevention!

[Luvian]

Originally posted by wellard: Well one thing that should be done first is to find out the why's of such shocking behaviour. Year in year out such crimes are committed and of course people quite naturally seek punishment of the culprit. But could more be done to prevent this crime in the first place? Where are the help lines for 'stuffed up sickos' that have these desires? Where do they turn to seek help? There are great help lines for abused kids or women that pave they way for a support network of highly trained people to help the victim. But what about the mentally sick perverts who have probably been sliding down this path of evil for some time before an act is committed. I'm not sure what can be done (are there any psychiatrists (sp) on the forum) but we have to ask ourselves, wherever in the world you are, are we doing enough to prevent such evil?

I agree with wellard, in my opinion, the only reason we have such crimes is because our society failed at finding way to spot and help those individual.

I don't believe that you just wake up one day, and you're suddently a psychopath. It's something you have to grow into over years, probably caused by traumas or something.

As a society, we're not only blind, but we refuse to help people. When we hear about domestic violence, when we see a parent beat his kids, when we see other people being bullied, we just pretend we saw nothing while we're secretly happy it's not happening to us.

I think we're the monsters.

[Azred]

Originally posted by wellard: That’s always been the problem Azred, what to do after the crime has been committed? We really are looking at the problem from the wrong angle IMO. We should be asking what could be done to prevent such acts in the future? Until we address the desire / urge issue and offer preventative solutions then no matter the punishment we are always playing catch up with a trail of human victims in our wake. Lets all try thinking outside the square and talk about prevention!

That is exactly what I was addressing earlier, wellard. There has never been--and will never be--a system designed which will deter 100% of crime.

Not only is deterring all crime impossible, trying to deter all crime in every circumstance should not be done. [img]graemlins/saywhat.gif[/img] Speeding is a crime, but if your wife is in labor no one could blame you for gunning the motor to get to the hospital. Nevertheless, you still broke the law. If all crime has somehow been deterred so that no one ever breaks any laws, then you might just have to pull over and try to deliver that breach birth until the ambulance arrives.

Another problem is that prison is a deterrent only for normal people who might not have committed serious crimes before. For a hardened criminal, prison is simply a chance to get back together with some friends on the inside and not be hassled by the outside world.
A different form of punishment needs to be instituted, I agree, but what? I have always liked the idea of exile, which would not only remove problem people from society but isn't a death penalty (satisfying to those who oppose death under any circumstances) and would cost the taxpayers only the fuel to shuttle the inmate to the place of exile.

[shamrock_uk]

Originally posted by Luvian: I think we're the monsters.

That's one heck of a statement there! I have to disagree though: society doesn't exist to provide psychological vetting services to its citizens, but to allow every citizen to embark on a fulfilling life free from interference to the extent it doesn't interfere with anyone else.

At most, those close to him are guilty of not spending enough energy to keep him 'on the rails', but the idea that somehow the rest of us are guilty of anything whatsoever strikes me as being faintly ridiculous (IMO). [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Luvian]

Originally posted by shamrock_uk: quote: Originally posted by Luvian: I think we're the monsters.

That's one heck of a statement there! I have to disagree though: society doesn't exist to provide psychological vetting services to its citizens, but to allow every citizen to embark on a fulfilling life free from interference to the extent it doesn't interfere with anyone else.

At most, those close to him are guilty of not spending enough energy to keep him 'on the rails', but the idea that somehow the rest of us are guilty of anything whatsoever strikes me as being faintly ridiculous (IMO). [img]smile.gif[/img] [/QUOTE]That's the point, before becoming the predator those people at one point were victims. They didn't get a "fulfilling life free from interference", so they decided others people shouldn't get one either.

What if it was the people close to him that messed him up? Why should we just stand there and pretend nothing is happening, then put all the blame on the person when he finally go crazy?

That's my point. We're willing to let other people suffer if it mean we can avoid risk and pain. We're not a society, we're individuals trying to advance our cause while pretending we're working together, so that we can use other people. We only care about what happen to other people when it has an impact on our personal life.

[uss]

Originally posted by Luvian: I don't believe that you just wake up one day, and you're suddently a psychopath. It's something you have to grow into over years, probably caused by traumas or something.

Sometimes traumas can come swiftly, usually backed by emotional instability that the person had before the incident. Sure, it can't be a "wake up one day" happening but I believe that a night of certain irregularities could have very traumatizing effects.

Originally posted by Luvian: As a society, we're not only blind, but we refuse to help people. When we hear about domestic violence, when we see a parent beat his kids, when we see other people being bullied, we just pretend we saw nothing while we're secretly happy it's not happening to us. I think we're the monsters.

Our society isn't that uncooperative. There have been cases in which an uninvolved person calls for help and thus saves the day. Of course, cases in which a witness doesn't help the victim have also happened. Nevertheless, to say that our society is inherently bad sounds like a one-sided generalisation.

[ 05-28-2005, 03:08 AM: Message edited by: uss ]

[Lucern]

I read up on the issue of deterrence some, under the impression that there was no evidence that the death penalty is a deterrence to future violent crime.

I was wrong, nominally. There's very little credible evidence for it, or more precisely, what is there has been statistically discredited or is simply anecdotal. Always question the side that consistently uses the same few studies from 20 years ago. More numerous, varied, and believable imo, are the heap of studies that fail to show a quantifiable deterrent effect. No significant degree of deterrence. You'd think there would be, but nope. This can seem counter-intuitive, since fear of death is natural. These repeated findings make sense though, because premeditated murders start with the question "How can I do this and get away with it?" Pure crimes of passion, if such things exist, do not count because forethought of the consequences can't really come up, including "What if I'm caught?" Some studies even show the opposite effect of implementation of the death penalty, dubbed brutalization. Where present it's usually reflected in higher rates of slain law enforcement agents as violent criminals go to greater lengths to avoid getting caught.

Although statistically, we're not really dealing with numbers high enough to make a statistician jump for joy, even here in Texas (it'll take a few more months ).* That doesn't invalidate all of those studies (as many of them use country-wide death penalties or regional numbers), but it does mean that in that margin of doubt we only have people arguing their opinions. Most who argue for the death penalty no longer claim deterrence as a justification, except in one poignant yet almost entirely insignificant case: it cannot be denied that killing someone prevents them from committing future crimes.

*Incidentally, though it's meaningless in the scope of so many statistical analyses, I'm currently about 12 miles from the crime capitol of the US [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 05-29-2005, 03:47 PM: Message edited by: Lucern ]