A word or two about monks samurais and knights

[Sir Kenyth]

I'm sorry morgan. I forgot about all those medieval factories churning out milled bar stock swords. They must've hauled the bar stock from the royal steel mill with King Richards truck line? It's a good thing they had the horse shoers and sword slingers union to protect the common peasant, otherwise those poor assembly line workers wouldn't get a fair break from the nobility.
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I rest my case about the media portrayal of the eastern warrior as superhuman.
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Think for a minute without envisioning Dragon Ball Z.
Why do you think that the Samurai is so much stronger than a knight?
Why do you think that Japanese steel is superior to European steel?
Why do you think that broad swords are inferior in construction?
What do you know about metallurgy and smithing to back this up?
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Remember, the katana is one of many variations of the asian scimitars. The katana is to the scimitar as the hand-and-a-half sword is to the broad sword. Every society had it's own versions of weapons, armor and martial arts. Not all of them have been portrayed quite as well as the asian styles in the media though.

[This message has been edited by Sir Kenyth (edited 09-05-2001).]

[Haddar - Servant of Talos]

Morgan, it sounds as if you've got it all figured out. Don't you think the knight was smart?? Sure, who would live if he was attacked by a ninja from behind? I wouldn't, and I don't think you would either. Not even a mighty samurai. Poison? Sure, that would work to. But not in hand to hand combat. Poisoning and assassination was what the ninja did. Not hand-to-hand combat.
I don't think the ninja was even very skilled at fighting in hand-to-hand combat.

The samurai? Circle and circle around him? A knight would surely have legs and feet to stand on and thus also MOVE or ROTATE. Yes, the samurai was master of his blade. But the knight was as well. Not all knights, but we are talking highly trained elite knights here, since a samurai was the japanese "elite knight". So, to hit " the spots that weren't so armoured" you do need the opportunity to strike, the skill to strike at precisely the right spot and the knight would have to fail his parry. As you may see, it would be quite hard.
As I said in a previous post: It's not the sword that determines the outcome. It is the fighter behind it. Even if you would call a broadsword factorymade, I for sure wouldn't want to be struck by it.

[Sir Kenyth]

So what you're saying is Roy Jones Jr. can whup someone way outside his weight class? Should we ask him that? If he's already a heavyweight, then you prove my point further by acknowledging that heavyweights can be fast and smart too.

[Sir Kenyth]

I used Bruce Lee as an example of a media-superhumanized martial artist in a previous post and opened up a whole new can of worms it seems.

[Sir Kenyth]

Morgan, I've got a twenty five pound weight at home. Tell me how to correctly lay it on my knee to dislocate it if you would. I'm really curious.

Sir Kenyth- From all of your many postings it seems to me that you portray yourself as knowledgable on a great many subjects such as physics, ballistics, pressure points and weight/pressure required to crush a larynx or dislocate a joint, as well as the armor penetration abilities of certain types of swords and the chances of a 'martial artist' to defeat an armored opponent. Just out of curiosity- what is your background that you would be an expert in so many areas?

By the way- as an argument to some of the comments made in this thread:

1. Just because you see someone doing gymnastics in plate armor on the discovery channel doesnt mean it is an accurate representation of what was possible in the 14th and 15th century. Did it ever occur to you that metallurgy and the technology used to make that armor on tv might have advanced a bit in 500 years?

2. As far as what a Katana can and cannot penetrate- Well, I have never taken a well made Katana and hacked a 15th century eauropean breastplate and I seriously doubt any of you reading this have either, so who the hell knows. What I can say is that based upon documentaries published by several historical societies and universities that some Katanas which were forged for Japanese Nobility were tested for sharpness and penetration ability by the Nobility themselves- on slaves. By one account, some of the Nobility refused to accept a sword if it was not capable of cutting- with a diagonal downward stroke- completely through a person from shoulder to hip in one swing (there are quite a few bones between the shoulder and the hip to add a little challenge to the test..). I dont know about whether that would penetrate plate armor, but hot damn I would say that I have never heard or read of a broadsword doing any such thing.

3. As far as an unarmed and unarmored martial artist versus a much larger opponent- Well my friend you obviously speak from heresay and opinion versus first person knowledge. I have seen- with my own eyes- a 64 year old man weighing barely more than 136 pounds drop a man who was 6'7" weighing well over 256lbs quite effortlessly. Granted, the majority of the force used to disable the man was his own, this argument about not being able to defeat someone based upon a size differance is the opinion of a man who speaks from opinion and not experience (by the way, if any of you doubt this subject, the old man is still alive and well and travels the country invited by current day 'masters' to teach their students. He is available for private instruction, if you have an inkling and a fat wallet).

[This message has been edited by Ashen (edited 09-05-2001).]

[Sir Kenyth]

I said nothing about a trained martial artist not being able to drop a common flabby oaf. I said that asian martial arts are no more effective and deadly than any other martial arts, boxing included and that technique can not always compensate for pure power. Enough pure power will ALWAYS overcome technique. I said that the knights martial prowess was no less impressive than the samurais. I said the katana was no more an effective or well made weapon than european swords and that the art of smithing was every bit as advanced in Europe, if not more so. I said Bruce Lee was not an immortal superhuman. I tried to bring the asian warrior into perspective and shed a little insight on the fact that the rest of the world had their heroes too, and that they were quite formidable in their own right. I said that steel is a superior armoring material compared to wood and cloth. I said that full plate armor of the elite European knight was the pinnacle of it's craft.


As for my qualifications? I'm not going to say that researchers everywhere are looking for my input, but I'm more than well versed. BTW the plate armors used in the discovery channel program were museum replicas. That means that they are accurate in weight, dimensions, and materials to an existing REAL peice.

A decade in the military which includes being part of a fire direction calculating crew for an artillery battery, and an ongoing firearms hobby including studying the ballistics of various calibers gives me a fair understanding of how velocity and mass work together in energy transfer to the target. Being a part of the artillery during desert sheild and storm also gives me a little insight into the reality of the war machine. Do you have better experience than this?

As far as metallurgy goes I've poured sand castings, forged and tempered a chisel and knife, arc welded, and worked with sheet metal. I try to collect blades but have found that true fighting quality blades are quite expensive. I still have one or two museum replicas. The interest has led me to read various books and articles about metalworking. About how alloys are made and their components. Do you know the additive that turns steel into stainless steel is chromium? Did you know your metal dental fillings are an alloy of copper and mercury. Mercury is usually deadly toxic, but in this alloy it's bound. A good portion of the articles were about the archaic smithy. The experience is amateurish at best but, do you have better?

My experience in martial arts is quite small. A year or two while I was a teenager. Since then, it has been nothing but what the military offers (not much) and the content of books and articles. I've watched some matches. Nothing I've seen outside of movies leads me to beleive that martial arts training endows you with superhuman powers or strengths, only discipline, coordination, and a knowledge of fighting. JUST LIKE ALL MARTIAL ARTS DO! As with anything, one grows with experience. Ask a wizened martial artist whether they think they can beat a trained boxer twice their size based purely on the virtue of their chosen martial art and I'm sure they'll smile coyly and change the subject. I am however a weight lifter and know what power enables you to do. It's not to be scoffed at. Perhaps my opinion is biased as I am a big guy.

My tertiary experiences include college classes, attending one or two SCA events to learn a bit more about middle age living, smithing, weapons and combat, and my own meandering conclusions which I try to base on clear thought and not "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon". I'm currently working in the computer feild as a network administrator or computer technician depending on the job opening. I'm of a gifted (well above average) intelligence, but certainly no genius.

Outside of old "Kung Fu" re-runs, do you have a better experience base? If so please take over as I am eager to hear your educated opinion!

P.S. As far as an account of nobles not accepting swords that weren't capable of cutting someone in half in one stroke from shoulder to hip? Well, I just saw a magazine the other day that said Elvis was sighted in a local diner. You gonna beleive that s#!t too?


[This message has been edited by Sir Kenyth (edited 09-06-2001).]

[Zoltan]

And if you use only schimitars and katanas with your kensai you will feel like a samurai. (Kensai can be modified as "cannot be specialized EXCEPT orientel weapons -so you can be GM in katana and schimitars but only proficient with lonsgword" and "cannot wear plate or chain" -a naked fighter is nothing so a samurai must wear something like leather-

[Lifetime]

Sir Kenyth (is your name Kenneth by any chance?) I dont think anyone doubts your qualifications.
Your knowledge on this subject is most impressive and I'm not going to say I know any more than the average Joe about how well a Plate could withstand a katana blow..
Rather a few things to think about..
I'd imagine that combat issint about exchanging blows, especially between say, a Knight and a Samurai. Its about scoring blows, meaning who gets to hit whom first. A blow by a weaponsmaster, or an expert at the craft of killing will hurt and maim no matter who you are, and how you're armored. A plate will protect you, no doubt, but if it hinders you to a point that a blow to the chest, while not lethal, is enough to topple you, you'd be at a serious disadvantage on your back in less-than-flexible armor against a trained swordsmen with a swift blade. Samurai didnt fence as much as wait for the right moment to take a swift, killing blow before sheathing the blade once more, to my knowledge of Japanese history (limited, I admit)

Also, these two cultures were never engaged in a fullscale engagement of knights vs. samurai, and therefore their martial arts forms and battle gear were NOT engineered to combat against each other. I'm sure that if Japan had to fight a war with medieval Europe, say English or French knights, with Samurai, their battle tactics would be very different. Armor was as much a form of rank and dress as well as battle gear, and, in the European case, was geared to face similarly equiped foes with lance and crossbow. Plate mail itself was only introduced because of the superiority of crossbow and bowmen during the hundred-years war, before that, it was just chainmail.
Nobody can doubt the potency of either Japanese, nor European battlestyle and tactics, because they were all equally adept to killing foes that they were armed and armored specially to face. Its almost like crossing a boxer with say, a judo black-belt. Its just unbalanced!

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