Visit the Ironworks Gaming Website Email the Webmaster Graphics Library Rules and Regulations Help Support Ironworks Forum with a Donation to Keep us Online - We rely totally on Donations from members Donation goal Meter

Ironworks Gaming Radio

Ironworks Gaming Forum

Go Back   Ironworks Gaming Forum > Ironworks Gaming Forums > General Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 11-11-2003, 10:08 PM   #1
GForce
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Ok. I've been wanting to voice this ever since it started so here goes.

Now from what I understood in the beginning, we went to war because of weapons of mass destruction AND a belief that Saddam Hussein has ties with Al-Quida (sp?). So I watch the news today and it shows Bush explaining to our Americans we are fighting for the freedom of Iraqis, freedom for Americans. Huh? Am I missing something here? I thought it was for those other two things. Now I'm thinking to myself, this excuse to fight for freedom is actually made up since the first two reasons didn't pan out well for the Bush administration. Okay, I'm not privy on Middle East history or politics, but that's what I'm seeing out of this war and this Bush admninistration. I see lies and deception. Well, thanks for letting me write this. Just a thought and I wanted to share that. BTW I consider myself a concerned American. Please don't see me as un-American. Peace. [img]smile.gif[/img]
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2003, 01:37 AM   #2
Timber Loftis
40th Level Warrior
 

Join Date: July 11, 2002
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 11,916
First, Barry the Sprout's sig quotes apply.

Second, I supported going to Iraq at the time, but for two reasons: (1) I believed evidence of WMD given by Powell (who I tended to trust) to the UN, and (2) freeing Iraqis.

I think the administration shot itself in the foot by "making hay" out of the WMD and not focusing on the conditions in Iraq. I, and many others, foresaw that later in time -- like, NOW -- the administration would resort to the "free Iraq" position -- making them seem dishonest. And, maybe they were, with themselves and with us. This could have all been avoided by focusing on the more important and *known* issue of freeing Iraq earlier and more vehemently. Oh well, they don't pay me to make policy, but anyway, those are my thoughts.
__________________
Timber Loftis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2003, 02:09 AM   #3
Luvian
Ironworks Moderator
 

Join Date: June 27, 2001
Location: Montreal, Quebec, Canada
Age: 42
Posts: 6,763
I think they learned a lesson out of this...
__________________
Once upon a time in Canada...
Luvian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2003, 02:28 AM   #4
Azred
Drow Priestess
 

Join Date: March 13, 2001
Location: a hidden sanctorum high above the metroplex
Age: 54
Posts: 4,037
Question Mark

Don't you know that Washington deals only with sound bytes? If it plays well in the media and with public opinion polls then that is the "play of the day"; this, of course, can--and does--change about every two weeks. Facts are things for statisticians and think tanks to ponder....

The entire "weapons of mass destruction" plot was thin from the beginning. Suppose Hussein did have such weapons; he would never have been able to use them against the continental US, only against American targets abroad. Hence, we didn't need to disable his weapons programs due to some imminent danger to us, only to the nations around him. Like Timber assets, had our position been "we are removing a destablizing force from the Middle East power scheme and helping to free the Iraqi people from a brutal dictator" then perhaps more people/nations would have supported military action. Oh, well, they don't pay me to form policy, either...but they should. [img]graemlins/petard.gif[/img] I couldn't possibly do any worse than anyone currently in Washington....
__________________
Everything may be explained by a conspiracy theory. All conspiracy theories are true.

No matter how thinly you slice it, it's still bologna.
Azred is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2003, 02:42 AM   #5
Chewbacca
Zartan
 

Join Date: July 18, 2001
Location: America, On The Beautiful Earth
Age: 50
Posts: 5,373
President Bush has just recently started being honest with his rhetoric of 'democracising' the middle east. The neo-cons that make up his administration have been pushing for that since the end of gulf war I.
WMDs and The war on terror was simple and effective fear-mongering propoganda.

As far as "liberating" the Iraqis goes, well its feelgood in theory and a nice side effect of protecting national interests in the region, but it loses gusto when one realizes how many people in the world need to be "liberated" and just how inconsistent this policy of liberation really is.

This idea that a "destabilizing force" has been removed kinda boggles my mind. I woud hardly call the region more stable now that Saddam's regime has fallen. And yet other "destabilizing forces: like Isreal, Syria, Lebanon, Iran,ect. have been passed over, at least militarily. I don't buy it. I think the region was more 'stable' with a "contained" Saddam regime in the short term veiw with regards to the """post-war""" and in retrospect.
Chewbacca is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2003, 12:51 PM   #6
GForce
Guest
 

Posts: n/a
Interesting thoughts and info. Thanks everyone for sharing. I wonder what other unstable countries does Bush want to stabilize. Me thinks there are reasons the Bush people and his allies are not telling us. Ahhh, the dark side of politics and power?
  Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2003, 01:58 PM   #7
Dreamer128
Dracolisk
 

Join Date: March 21, 2001
Location: Europe
Age: 39
Posts: 6,136
I'm not a historian, but didn't the first Gulfwar start after rumours that the Iraqis killed numerous baby's in Kuwait, while the only real witness was the daughter of the Kuwaitian Ambassador?
After all his crimes, Husseins fall was caused by a number of lies that weren't even his. Irony of faith.
Dreamer128 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2003, 02:51 PM   #8
Timber Loftis
40th Level Warrior
 

Join Date: July 11, 2002
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 11,916
Quote:
Originally posted by Dreamer128:
I'm not a historian, but didn't the first Gulfwar start after rumours that the Iraqis killed numerous baby's in Kuwait, while the only real witness was the daughter of the Kuwaitian Ambassador?
After all his crimes, Husseins fall was caused by a number of lies that weren't even his. Irony of faith.
No, it started after Iraq's army invaded and occupied Kuwait. Saddam was angry Kuwait was selling oil cheap, and felt it was hurting him. He demanded $10 billion from Kuwait in repairations, and lined up his army, the world's 6th largest at the time, along the Kuwait border. From the very moment President Bush got a call that helicopters were invading the country's capital and tanks had crossed the border, he was on the phone with Thatcher planning how to free Kuwait. Being decendents of WWII, these two leaders agreed that this cannot stand, simply cannot stand -- countries don't *annex* anymore.

Anyway, so there's your 5 cent history lesson for the day.
__________________
Timber Loftis is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-12-2003, 03:23 PM   #9
Djinn Raffo
Ra
 

Join Date: March 11, 2001
Location: Ant Hill
Age: 49
Posts: 2,397
The ends justify the lies.
Djinn Raffo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-13-2003, 03:44 AM   #10
Azred
Drow Priestess
 

Join Date: March 13, 2001
Location: a hidden sanctorum high above the metroplex
Age: 54
Posts: 4,037
Question Mark

Quote:
Originally posted by Chewbacca:
President Bush has just recently started being honest with his rhetoric of 'democracising' the middle east. The neo-cons that make up his administration have been pushing for that since the end of gulf war I.
WMDs and The war on terror was simple and effective fear-mongering propoganda.
I think history has shown clearly enough that a democratic form of government is the most stable. Why would any rational person not want this to happen?

Quote:
Originally posted by Chewbacca:
As far as "liberating" the Iraqis goes, well its feel-good in theory and a nice side effect of protecting national interests in the region, but it loses gusto when one realizes how many people in the world need to be "liberated" and just how inconsistent this policy of liberation really is.
I don't deny that there are many nations whose people are in need of being liberated from their current government(s) and that the "helpful liberator" mentality is/has been applied inconsistently. These are simply the faults of those in Washington being unwilling to commit themselves fully to the philosophy to which they ascribe.
Even if the "liberator" mentality falls apart as you say it does, how could it be wrong to protect national interests?


Quote:
Originally posted by Chewbacca:
This idea that a "destabilizing force" has been removed kinda boggles my mind. I woud hardly call the region more stable now that Saddam's regime has fallen. And yet other "destabilizing forces: like Isreal, Syria, Lebanon, Iran,ect. have been passed over, at least militarily. I don't buy it. I think the region was more 'stable' with a "contained" Saddam regime in the short term veiw with regards to the "post-war" and in retrospect.
Oh, yes. The other nations you name are indeed "destabilizing forces", as is the plethora of groups that seem to spring up every few weeks trying to accomplish some ridiculous goal. Like I have said many times before, the real reason that no one can seem to bring about any sort of lasting peace in the Middle East is because no one there really wants peace, they want victory.
The short-term solution of a "controlled" Hussein regime was not a workable solution. The most miserable failure of Bush, Sr.'s Presidency was the failure to remove Hussein in 1991; this would have given Iraq 10 years to form a stable government, improve its infrastructure, rebuild its economy, etc. A short-term solution in the Middle East is like a band-aid on a butcher-knife slash--it might keep the skin together for a while and slow the bleeding a little, but it will never help the wound heal.

There will never be any peace in the Middle East as long as the hot-headed children who currently have social or political clout keep trying to:
a) form an fundamental Islamic government, because there is too much history of various Islamic groups trying to kill each other over discrepancies in matters of faith
b) strong-arm their way into power so that they can bully anyone on their "list of enemies" out of existence
c) demand the destruction of Israel, only because there is a history of bad blood between Jews and Muslims and Israel will fight back
The leaders in these nations need to put the past behind them. Of course, as soon as they do that their population will see them as weak and revolt....

When Islamic groups are bombing Muslims during Ramadan in Riyadh I fear that the Middle East is going to kill itself completely.
__________________
Everything may be explained by a conspiracy theory. All conspiracy theories are true.

No matter how thinly you slice it, it's still bologna.
Azred is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How to end terrorism Dirty Meg General Discussion 28 09-15-2004 10:37 AM
Another act of terrorism? Skunk General Discussion 8 08-06-2003 02:43 PM
Terrorism Timber Loftis General Conversation Archives (11/2000 - 01/2005) 1 10-10-2002 12:32 PM
Act of terrorism? Jorath Calar General Conversation Archives (11/2000 - 01/2005) 14 10-07-2002 07:17 AM
New benefits for those who help in the war against terrorism Ronn_Bman General Discussion 1 12-01-2001 05:04 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:01 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.3
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
©2024 Ironworks Gaming & ©2024 The Great Escape Studios TM - All Rights Reserved