Jamie Bulger Killers. Release them or not?

[Gaelic]

The question is (and I'm sure was at the trial) could the 10 year olds understand that what they were doing was wrong? I would venture to say that most kids that age could understand that. Therefore, I believe they should still be held under control. I think their time in juvenile detention was just a waiting period before they were old enough for real prison.



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Gaelic

[Cavern Sniffer]

Originally posted by Gaelic: I think their time in juvenile detention was just a waiting period before they were old enough for real prison.

I think this is what the majority of the British people thought too, wrongly. Sadly they were just being held until they were old enough to leave scot free with new homes, new I.D's, money in their pockets and with the world effectively at their feet. A good payday for child murder by any stretch of the imagination.

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It's bleedin dark down here, slippery too.
Man, that's a pisser.

[kiwidoc]

To put these statements in context please remember that I am a forensic psychiatrist and am therefore trained in child development, the study of dangerous behaviour and the English legal system.

* These children HAVE served a standard period of time for a murder. To be eligible for parole after 8 years is normal.

* The children were placed in a prison with much older inmates. It is a fact they will have been sexually abused on numerous occasions by older inmates. The danger of this WAS pointed out, but a senior politician overruled the justice system in order to score politcal points.

* The father of the murdered child is publically PLEADING with people not to attack these children. He is saying committing more violent crimes only prolongs the tragedy and grief.

* The only reason that so much money has been spent to secure new lives for thse children is the phenomenal outpouring of sheer venom and hate that has spewed out, fueled by the press for purely money making reasons. If the crowds could have got to these children they would have literally torn them apart, even BEFORE the trial.

* Ten year old children have little real idea of what death is. This is even more so when they are from poorly educated backgrounds. Also, they have difficulty comprehending some one elses experiences - putting them selves in others shoes.

* The boys were re-enacting scenes from a movie they should never have been allowed to watch, which was for over 18 year olds only. They had obviuosly been exposed to violent videos.

* Psychological and psychiatric reports were ignored - not for justice or for legal reasons but by politicians in the intersts of winning votes. I cannot tell you what was in these reports as they are confidential but I did hear that there is far more to this case than was ever made public.


I was appalled and revolted by the scenes of mass hysteria and hatred that happened just down the road from where I work. I know police officers and prision service officers were seriously assaulted by an out of control mob baying for blood.

It saddens me to see the same vigilante attitudes expressed on this forum. It also saddens me to see people expressing a desire to violently break the law to achieve "vengeance" when even the poor father has pointed out that this helps no one.

If someone DID torture and murder these two teenage boys - why would they be any less guilty than the boys were?


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There is only one kiwidoc, accept no substitutes

STANDARD OPERATING PROCEEDURE
www.judyhope.co.uk

[Cavern Sniffer]

Originally posted by kiwidoc: To put these statements in context please remember that I am a forensic psychiatrist and am therefore trained in child development, the study of dangerous behaviour and the English legal system.

Setting aside your other statements, notes and points do you in your "professional opinion" think that it is correct that these two individuals should be released after only 8 years for the abduction and cold blooded murder of a baby?



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It's bleedin dark down here, slippery too.
Man, that's a pisser.

[Ladyzekke]

OK, I see what you are saying KiwiDoc. But I do think there is a difference between what those two boys did, and the motivations of someone who would murder the two boys. I mean, if anyone tried to kill those two murdering boys, it would be out grief, and retribution, whereas what the two boys did to James Bulger was uncalled for. What was THEIR motivation? There are certain humans out there are are just plain evil, and get off on killing for just the thrill of it. These people usually don't just shoot someone, they really get into it and stab, rip, and gouge their victims in their sick activities. These are people that I think this world could do without. Imagine if you were the mother of this kid, how you would feel knowing what he went through...

I respect everyone's opinions on this subject, this is just my personal opinion, and I do not want to come off as argumentative. Just stating how I feel on the topic. I have nothing against anyone who may disagree with me

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[kiwidoc]

Cavern Sniffer - it is highly debatable whether it is POSSIBLE for these boys to have committed cold blooded murder. By definition murder means you must have a full understanding of the consequences of your acts.

In my "professional" opinion it is not right to over rule the justice system of an entire country in just one case. The law is the law, and should not be bent or broken for political ends. If the law needs changing then do it through the proper channels. To set a precedent where politicians can over rule the law for all sorts of reasons is just scary to me.

ladyzekke - Two points. First- the people who have attempted to kill these boys are NOT relatives of Jamie Bulger, nor are they even close friends of the family. These people do NOT have a reason to be overwhelmed with grief. They are people who cannot control their angry reactions and violent impulses, and who have seized on a "cause" that is not theirs. Are you advocating justice by the mob and throw away the law books?

Secondly judging whether or not someone is "evil" is a long, complex process that involves far more detailed information than you have about these boys. In fact even after 8 years of training in psychiatry (AFTER getting my full medical qualifications) and 6 years of experience and further training in forensics I am only happy to make this judegment as part of a team. I freely admit I am not skilled enough to do it on my own. It is impossible to make this judgement on the basis of biaised and abridged news reports.

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There is only one kiwidoc, accept no substitutes

STANDARD OPERATING PROCEEDURE
www.judyhope.co.uk

[This message has been edited by kiwidoc (edited 06-28-2001).]

[Cavern Sniffer]

Originally posted by kiwidoc: To put these statements in context please remember that I am a forensic psychiatrist and am therefore trained in child development, the study of dangerous behaviour and the English legal system. * These children HAVE served a standard period of time for a murder. To be eligible for parole after 8 years is normal. To be released is not normal, especially for murder or manslaughter * The children were placed in a prison with much older inmates. It is a fact they will have been sexually abused on numerous occasions by older inmates. The danger of this WAS pointed out, but a senior politician overruled the justice system in order to score politcal points. "It is a fact they will have been sexually abused on numerous occasions" is conjecture and should read "may have been sexually abused". Who says that is a "fact" based statement. The Government, the press, yourself? Which politician. Name names and what political advantages did he/she seek? * The father of the murdered child is publically PLEADING with people not to attack these children. He is saying committing more violent crimes only prolongs the tragedy and grief.I daresay the poor man just wants the door shut on the sordid episode and who can blame him?) * The only reason that so much money has been spent to secure new lives for thse children is the phenomenal outpouring of sheer venom and hate that has spewed out, fueled by the press for purely money making reasons. If the crowds could have got to these children they would have literally torn them apart, even BEFORE the trial.All the more reason to keep them incacerated * Ten year old children have little real idea of what death is. This is even more so when they are from poorly educated backgrounds. Also, they have difficulty comprehending some one elses experiences - putting them selves in others shoes. These children were neither the poorest nor the most poorly educated of children, there are far worse off in Britain. * The boys were re-enacting scenes from a movie they should never have been allowed to watch, which was for over 18 year olds only. They had obviuosly been exposed to violent videos.The same thing happens every day, fortunately juvenile homicide by minors is rare. * Psychological and psychiatric reports were ignored - not for justice or for legal reasons but by politicians in the intersts of winning votes. Sorry but I fail to believe this. The defence team would have torn this case to pieces if the reports would help their clients and they can not be legally with held from the defence. Surely the prosecution would have included them if a result was more likely. Again, what's this politician thing,? Please elaborate. I cannot tell you what was in these reports as they are confidential but I did hear that there is far more to this case than was ever made public. You state that "I did hear that there is far more to this case than was ever made public". Yet you "cannot tell us what is in these reports as they are confidential". This is contradictory, were you privvy to the confidentialities of this case or are you working on hearsay in which case the confidentiality aspect no longer holds water? I was appalled and revolted by the scenes of mass hysteria and hatred that happened just down the road from where I work. I know police officers and prision service officers were seriously assaulted by an out of control mob baying for blood. [Sadly this happens sometimes It saddens me to see the same vigilante attitudes expressed on this forum. It also saddens me to see people expressing a desire to violently break the law to achieve "vengeance" when even the poor father has pointed out that this helps no one.[Not I[/b] If someone DID torture and murder these two teenage boys - why would they be any less guilty than the boys were? [They wouldn't[/b] [/B]

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It's bleedin dark down here, slippery too.
Man, that's a pisser.

[Ladyzekke]

Well, myself, I am not a relative or friend of the victim either, but just picturing in my head what that poor baby went through, his life taken forever in such a violent way, makes me feel empathy, anger, and yes, a desire for vengeace and justice. They didn't just shoot this kid, they tortured him. I mean, when you were that age, did you ever think of doing such things? I certainly did not. Tis inhuman in many ways. And I experienced quite a lot of abuse when I was their age, and did feel hatred on a massive scale, but never acted out on it, as I knew what was wrong and what was right. I was determined to not become "one of them." Yes, I agree, some cannot tell the difference between right and wrong, but I think in many cases, they know the difference, but do not care, and feed their own sick desires. Yes I agree again, it can be difficult telling the difference between true evil, and mental/physical problems. But in the long run, if someone cannot be cured, no matter what his/her problem is, they are a danger to society, and that should be taken to account for, as many multiple offenders have gotten away with many crimes because they were deemed "parollable".

Ack! I hate to be disagreeable! As a phychiatrist, I respect your opinions, please do not take my above post wrong. Just how I feel is all on the subject, dunno, guess cause of my life's experiences and what I have personally learned...?



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[Cavern Sniffer]

Originally posted by kiwidoc: Cavern Sniffer - it is highly debatable whether it is POSSIBLE for these boys to have committed cold blooded murder. By definition murder means you must have a full understanding of the consequences of your acts. In my "professional" opinion it is not right to over rule the justice system of an entire country in just one case. The law is the law, and should not be bent or broken for political ends. If the law needs changing then do it through the proper channels. To set a precedent where politicians can over rule the law for all sorts of reasons is just scary to me.

Let me rephrase the question omitting words that can be sidestepped through descriptive technicalities such as the word murder.

Originally posted by Cavern Sniffer: Setting aside your other statements, notes and points do you in your "professional opinion" think that it is correct that these two individuals should be released after only 8 years for the crimes that they HAVE BEEN CONVICTED OF. The ones that resulted in the death of a baby?

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It's bleedin dark down here, slippery too.
Man, that's a pisser.

[DawnChaser]

Originally posted by Lavindathar: I hope I dont get people mad when i make this statement. If i cud see those two lads, i would literally go straight for their throats I aint a violent person, and I am only 16. I dont condone death in anyway,but for these two I make an exception. [/B]

There is no such thing as an exception to a belief. You either believe in a thing, or you don't. Otherwise, you are being a hypocrite.

As for the question, you are not really interested in whether I, or any respondent, thinks it is right or wrong to let these boys go, you are only using this thread as a soapbox for you to vent your anger and frustration.

As for justice, it is meted out by the courts, and, the courts have decided that these two have served their time. Justice has been served. The laws that were used to determine this are laws that the people have determined.

As an individual, and an American, I am frowned upon for my public acceptance of the death penalty as a form of justice. Not just by forum readers, but most of the civilized world. I have the strength of my convictions. So, to read a statement like "I dont condone death in anyway,but for these two I make an exception." tells me that though you profess a certain belief, you don't stand by it. Either you do believe in a thing, unequivocally, or you don't. Take a stand, then stick by it.

A civilized nation implements the will of the people through the system of laws that are determined by the people. This is justice. Once the courts have meted out justice, anything else is considered vigilantism and/or vengeance. Both of which would involve the same type of criminal, abhorrent act that you are all expressing your anger and frustration over here.

Cavern Sniffer, Moridin, LadyZekke, Sir Taliesin and Lavindathar. These two young men may have been reformed, maybe not. Either way, they have completed their sentence, as determined by the judicial process. Let them at least attempt to establish a life with some type of future.

"Maybe it's time to change the laws. 10 year olds should be able to get the death penalty too!! *SHEESH*"

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[This message has been edited by DawnChaser (edited 06-28-2001).]