question about religion, philosophy

[Charean]

Power Ethics sounds interesting.

I think if you take it to the next level - meaning that everything you do, you take responsibility for. You OWN your actions and thoughts. This is saying that reacting is still your choice - and that you choose to respond to stimuli, no matter what it is.

I would hesitate to use the word Satanism, however.

There are some interesting discussions and theories by Tony Robbins that would fit in. In no way would I call him a Satanist, though. He strikes me as more New Age.

One time I royally upset someone by suggesting that he is responsible for his life. Apparently he was happier believing that he was a victim of circumstance rather than knowing that he actually made all the choices possible and created what his life is now. Interesting.

Some of this is also New Age belief. Some Wicca can play into this as well. Power Ethics is another name for what is already out there, I guess.

[Bahamut]

well, all my beliefs are contradictory...

i don't like churches.. because of history... and what assurance that it isn't happening now?

i believe in my own destiny... i believe that my life is not mine at the beginning... it is a gift that has been GIVEN to me, and i can very well do as i please responsibly. God has given us enough power to run our lives... so let Him dictate it in the end? we control our own destinies, and God only grades us whether we are deserving to go to heaven.

Maybe i should change religion... hehehe

the thing is, it all depends on how you use it. I believe in power ethics. the real trick is how to NOT use the power at will rather than controlling the power... you control the power it controls you... you just have to control your will... that's my opinion...

[LordKathen]

Hmmm, the old "do athiests have morals" issue. Well, setting "God" asside, think about it. We are social animals who need each other to survive. In order to be social we need to get along, right? Well, in my opinion, this is where "morals" come from. Morals are just an unsaid list of common sense rules that one needs to follow to progress or co-habitate. You want to eat? Dont do something that will offend me, and I will feed you. This of course has evolved into hundreds of different cultures, religions, government law, and let alone the billions of different opinions of the population. So we agree with one set of morals here or there or...there, and try to get along. These days we have saturated law with "moral base" opinion, and in the proscess created documents to uphold the foundation of that
"moral base", like the constitution. This is what makes me think the fathers of this country were genious. Set a "moral base", yet put in that base a trigger to allow all other opinions of different "moral bases" to get along.
Beutiful! Free speech being the finest and best example. Anyway, as a lot of you know, I just had my 4th child this weekend, and anyone who tells me I have no "morals" becouse I am athiest, has none themselves in my opinion.
Here is a good article on the social cognative theory. Hits the mark. [img]graemlins/awesomework.gif[/img]
http://www.med.usf.edu/~kmbrown/Soci...y_Overview.htm


[ 06-10-2003, 01:06 AM: Message edited by: LordKathen ]

[Harkoliar]

very interesting responses all of you. i was "indeed" contemplating about this issue regarding myself and satanism. it was very helpful all of you to post your own opinions and suggestions. here are some of the things i give special attention to based on your post:


Magik:
"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet." or foul as the case may be

that is an interesting quote and i thank you for that. [img]smile.gif[/img] i will not use the word satansim unless the person im talking to knows what im talking about. declaring myself one in the open is not very healthy as well.


Cerek the Barbarian:
As a Christian, I obviously disagree with this philosophy. Not just because it doesn't honor God, but because "might makes right" inherently leads to abuse, neglect, or termination of those that are considered "inferior". Since they don't "measure up" to the required qualifications, they are to be ignored or eliminated.
I agree that you should not call yourself a Satanist because of the negative connotations associated with that label. Even though most Satanists do not actually worship Satan (something I learned from a previous discussion on this board ), the general public doesn't realize this. They only know one definition for Satanism - and that is worshipping the guy with the forked tail, cloven hooves, and pitchfork.

personal opinion here:
your idea that "might makes right" can be abusive to those people who cant control themselves. you can be refering to the general population regarding that matter and i agree about that as well. however, i am talking about myself and i believe in my self-control regarding the philosophy "might makes right". it is a scary and powerful philosophy, and i agree that even though i may "not" think im abusive but i am actually in truth. and that makes it so scary all the more. so i will take this word of advise and i will use this philosophy in a moderate fashion. and i disagree that both are mutually exclusive since your are talking then to the extremes of both power ethics and christian. i can however be moderate to both of them just as timber said.

also in your second post:
beautiful story [img]smile.gif[/img]


Timber:
all respects but I don't think "self-empowerment" and God are mutually exclusive. I certainly think God helps those who help themselves. Self-empowerment is about a certain responsibility for your actions. It's about not whining when you're down and doing something about it.
I certainly don't think God would want us all to hang out on porches with our 40's lamenting our problems to him and doing nothing proactive about them ourselves. Trust in God mustn't extend to a decrease in self-reliance and taking responsibility.

my philosophy exactly. i believe that God will decide my ultimate fate. but my actions is also my responsibility. when it comes to the supernatural, phenomenal, and cataclismic events, then i will leave my fate up to GOD. but the rest, i will take my own actions.


Chewbacca:
It's an individual path for people who want individual responsibility for their own destiny. It is about not blaming other people for mistakes and shortcoming but accepting them. If this isn't a noble moral or ethical code I dont know what is.

I disagree that this path is mutually exclusive to any other, in particular Christianity. My personal beliefs and practice includes the tenets of both.



i agree about that noble and moral code of yours, but would you care to share your own beliefs and practice which includes both christianity and satansim (power ethics if you would call it that way)


Bahamut:
i don't like churches.. because of history... and what assurance that it isn't happening now?

i believe in my own destiny... i believe that my life is not mine at the beginning... it is a gift that has been GIVEN to me, and i can very well do as i please responsibly. God has given us enough power to run our lives... so let Him dictate it in the end? we control our own destinies, and God only grades us whether we are deserving to go to heaven.
the thing is, it all depends on how you use it. I believe in power ethics. the real trick is how to NOT use the power at will rather than controlling the power... you control the power it controls you... you just have to control your will... that's my opinion...


it is so hard to give trust to others especially to the church with all these kinds of scandals involved. trust is a hard to thing to give without earning your respect first. i believe that some of the people in the church can deserve my trust but not all. somehow.. sometime.. i have lost my faith in the church handling in people's affairs but i still beleive in god. some people say that thru the chuch can you reach god.. i find that insulting that your MUST follow the church to reach god and nothing else.

i agree about the control ryann [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Spelca]

Well, I certainly don't see why somebody can't call themselves a Christian and at the same time believe in power ethics. I mean, isn't Bible all about interpretation? Every single church has their own interpretation. That's why you have so many different beliefs. So, go ahead and call yourself a Christian, because as long as you read from the Bible, and believe what's in it (even though you interpret it in your own way), you're a Christian in my opinion. But, unfortunately, you can't be a Roman Catholic because as far as I know they have a set of rules, and I think that the power ethics would be against them. But, if you want to be sure, ask a priest about it. But I'm not a fan of the church anyway (I said church, not religion! [img]tongue.gif[/img] ), so I don't really mind if you call yourself a Roman Catholic... [img]tongue.gif[/img]

[ 06-10-2003, 04:47 AM: Message edited by: Spelca ]

Ethics are (from and help to form) ideology.
Ideology ascends from earth to heaven.
It doesn’t matter what you call them or how you render them but Ethics are meaningless, since they are the spawn of the materiel conditions rather than anything by themselves.
Although of course, Ideology can take on a life of it’s own (like relegion) but then it will react to and by the materiel conditions

If you want to live you life by a certain code, you have to change the materiel conditions under which you live and if you want others to live like that, you must do the same for them.

Generally though, morality and ethics et al is like water flowing down a hill,
They simply take the shortest path possible to achieving their goal.

[Bahamut]

well, you do not need the church to reach God Hark you know that

i don't need the church or anybody to make me believe that there is a God... it is what I want to believe... yes, i may be influenced by other people but i stil make the choice in the end...

and in the end... our choices decide our fate... so who knows? [img]smile.gif[/img]

[Harkoliar]

spelca:
Well, I certainly don't see why somebody can't call themselves a Christian and at the same time believe in power ethics. I mean, isn't Bible all about interpretation? Every single church has their own interpretation. That's why you have so many different beliefs. So, go ahead and call yourself a Christian, because as long as you read from the Bible, and believe what's in it (even though you interpret it in your own way), you're a Christian in my opinion. But, unfortunately, you can't be a Roman Catholic because as far as I know they have a set of rules, and I think that the power ethics would be against them. But, if you want to be sure, ask a priest about it.

you know, your right.. i do have to ask a priest about this kind of matter... that is why i have stopped taking my communion (much to my dismay of my conservative parents) in the church for nearly 3 years now.. but i do attend mass and i enjoy thier songs.. its really hard to do what i do, i guess its time for me to consult someone within the roman catholic church. thanks for the advise.


bahamut:
well, you do not need the church to reach God Hark you know that

i do as well ryann, some do not.. (especially my entire family ) and i cant explain it to them as well, i dont think they will understand.. maybe in the future. we shall see.

Eisenschwarz

If you want to live you life by a certain code, you have to change the materiel conditions under which you live and if you want others to live like that, you must do the same for them.

Generally though, morality and ethics et al is like water flowing down a hill,
They simply take the shortest path possible to achieving their goal.


from what i understand from your post, im trying not to create a religion nor influence others to follow my code of ethics, but im trying to sort out my conflicting views on certain ethics, philosophies and morals here. and what is this shortest path and goal?

[Timber Loftis]

Originally posted by Bahamut: well, you do not need the church to reach God Hark you know that

Depends. If you are Catholic you absolutely need the church to reach, or even talk to, God. Can't get there without it.

[Chewbacca]

Originally posted by Harkoliar: very interesting responses all of you. i was "indeed" contemplating about this issue regarding myself and satanism. it was very helpful all of you to post your own opinions and suggestions. here are some of the things i give special attention to based on your post: ... Chewbacca: It's an individual path for people who want individual responsibility for their own destiny. It is about not blaming other people for mistakes and shortcoming but accepting them. If this isn't a noble moral or ethical code I dont know what is. I disagree that this path is mutually exclusive to any other, in particular Christianity. My personal beliefs and practice includes the tenets of both. i agree about that noble and moral code of yours, but would you care to share your own beliefs and practice which includes both christianity and satansim (power ethics if you would call it that way) ...

All religion is open to interpretation... Here is some of my interpretation.

I have already illustrated how forgiveness, which can be percieved as a principle "belief" of Christianity, can be an act of personal responsibility, which is clearly a satanistic principle.

I practice forgiveness as part of taking personal responsibility for my character and actions and believe in it's redeeming powers upon the excessively guilt-ridden human Psyche. Sounds like heaven to me. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Of course a Satanist who forgives themselves and others for transgressions doesnt get any gaurantee of a reward like "heaven" or a punishment like "hell" like a Christian does. Alas, that would be for a discussion about how the ideologies differ and work against each other instead of how they mesh.

Let's also look at "The meek shall inherit the earth".
You must be thinking "How does the meek have anything to do with power ethics?"

Lets begin with my vision of Christ, who is not a man who lived 2000 years ago, nor is an object of worship and idoltry, nor is a literal son of God.

Christ is a consciousnous. An idea that compassion, love, and peace are amongst the most powerful virtues and charcteristics in the Universe. Every person can reach these idea's and are effected by them.

A Christ-like person carries with them great power, with no need for armies or wealth. The mythical christ is such person and stands for the potential for every individual, even a satanist or an aethist, to have and be touched by compassion, love, and peace. Simply put, Christ is for everybody, even if everybody isn't for Christ.

So being "meek", by my definition, is actually a most powerful position, making the character development of qualities like compassion, spiritual love, and peacefulness an intregal part of living powerfully and taking personal responsibility.

Thats a taste of some of my beliefs and practices. I consider myself a Shaman, which roughly translate to "seeker of knowledged" for my own intents and purposes. I have been told I am "new age" and that I have a place waiting for me in hell because of my skeptism about the bible. But hey, you can't please everybody! [img]smile.gif[/img]