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Old 09-08-2008, 08:49 AM   #111
Stratos
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Default Re: Remember that Dutch comic about Mohamad?

"Biblical contradictions, True or Not?" is a minefiled I don't want to wander into. I personally think there are verses that contradict each other, and Biblical literalists sometimes use fairly tortured logic to show that it aint so. More than that, I wont say.

ETA: I'm sure Yorick have something to add here.
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Old 09-08-2008, 08:57 AM   #112
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Default Re: Remember that Dutch comic about Mohamad?

I'm not referring to contradictions. I'm referring to different people being able to make different interpretations of the Bible (or other holy book) or parts of it. The two concepts are close, but not the same.
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Old 09-08-2008, 08:58 AM   #113
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Default Re: Remember that Dutch comic about Mohamad?

Whoa, this thread have grown.
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Old 09-08-2008, 09:04 AM   #114
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Default Re: Remember that Dutch comic about Mohamad?

Yeah...I should change my settings. Only 10 posts per page doesn't seem to be a lot and pages are flashing past.
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Old 09-08-2008, 09:49 AM   #115
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Default Re: Remember that Dutch comic about Mohamad?

Wow. I go to sleep for a few hours and look what happens...

The whole apes thing; I know it's been address already but I'd like to chip in. The reason that their are still apes around is the same reason you can look outside your window and NOT see an ape. Evolution is all about survivability. Adapting to your surroundings and continuing as a species. Yes, humans are probably smarter than apes, and can think their way through a situation on the path towards survival - but you and me wouldn't last a day in the middle of the rain forest. Apes and chimps who have lived there for millions of years have adapted to these surroundings, and this is why they live there, not in a pub in surrey. But the whole 'If Americans exist then why do Europeans still?' argument is just as valid. It's a combination of thousands of reasons which, over a scale of millions of years makes it together.

And dplax, we've been talking about one such 'different interpretation' for a while now. Creationism: Did god create man, or did he create evolution?
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Old 09-08-2008, 10:28 AM   #116
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Default Re: Remember that Dutch comic about Mohamad?

If anyone is interested in the evolution of the eye, here's a video clip that present a model on how such an evolution can happen.

Random mutations causes slightly different eye forms among a population, and natural selection favours those who have the most efficient eyes compared to their peers.
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Old 09-08-2008, 10:30 AM   #117
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Default Re: Remember that Dutch comic about Mohamad?

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Originally Posted by Stratos View Post
If anyone is interested in the evolution of the eye, here's a video clip that present a model on how such an evolution can happen.

Random mutations causes slightly different eye forms among a population, and natural selection favours those who have the most efficient eyes compared to their peers.
Why look at an eye, when no one can tell me where a cell came from?
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Old 09-08-2008, 10:38 AM   #118
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Originally Posted by Variol (Farseer) Elmwood View Post
Why look at an eye, when no one can tell me where a cell came from?
You mean abiogenesis, the "creation" of life? Not surprisingly, scientists have models for that too.
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Old 09-08-2008, 10:39 AM   #119
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Default Re: Remember that Dutch comic about Mohamad?

Seriously Variol, I can tell your deeply religious and wont really be swayed.

Seems to me your the "well no answers from scientists it must be God". Seems kinda naieve and one track minded to me.

We don't know where the first cells came from with 100% certainty. We have ideas. And Theories. We aren't clever enough to work it out fully. But we have so much information and data that supports these theorys, that it seems 99.9% certain that we are correct. The gravity example is the best example of this. We have never proved it exists. We have a theory and a formula, but for all we know, it could be completely wrong. Although we are 99.9% sure its correct.

Who's to say, that when a meteor came from 1000000million lights years away, hit another meteor, depending on specific components of said metoer, the resulting explosion didn't fuse things together to create the first cell? We just don't know, and probably wont for an awful long time.

But just because we don't know, just going "oh it must be God then", is really ludicrous in my opinion.

The fact that when that church roof collapsed in and killed 100 people in Italy, all the Christians say "it was gods will". Bollocks was it. It was the fact that some shoddy builder didnt install a beam correctly and it collapsed (or whatever the TRUE reason was).

I just really dont understand how people are so blinded by faith, they put everything into it. And you may doubt all our theories, but at the end of the day, we have a million answers to a million questions.

Do you have one factual piece of information that can say God existed without doubt?

Can you give me one piece of factual information that God existed, with only a 0.1% chance of it being right?

No because it doesnt exist....

But Oh wait, there is the Turin Shroud...
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Old 09-08-2008, 10:43 AM   #120
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Default Re: Remember that Dutch comic about Mohamad?

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Originally Posted by Yorick View Post
Nah mate, that's apples and oranges. I think Cerek's point is a fair one. EVOLUTION implies a superiority and upward momentum for more complex species. Survival of the fittest and all that.
That's my point, our ancestors didn't survive. Humans and primates are all that remain from the humanoid, bi-pedal branch of the tree of evolution our ancestors forged.

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Well if the fittest survive and evolve, why do the weaker ones not evolve?
It's not that they didn't evolve. Everything's always mutating/adapting, the question is, are the mutations advantageous or detrimental in the dog-eat-dog natural world?

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And why would humans evolve weaker babies? An ape baby is far more sturdy and independent than the fragile human one.
Well, it's hardly survival of the fittest from day one. Humans require a longer period of infanthood 'helplessness' than other animals in order to hone the advanced thought and cognitive processes that separate us from other species. And it's not like we can't afford to sacrifice strength for this ability when the species has evolved to protect the young.

Quote:
And how about the eye that needs all it's components to work?
We know a lot about the eye. In fact, we don't even have to look at fossils to see how the eye evolved, the different stages exist in animals today where the eye simply wasn't required to advance any further.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=fOtP7HEuDYA
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=QM-LcQZHg1M

Quote:
I still have fundamental problems with new species mutations, when gene locks prevent us breeding even mule that reproduces (A mule is the result of a donkey and an ass), let alone having a tiger and dog breed.
Sorry, I don't quite understand the point you're trying to make here. If you're saying a tiger and a dog shouldn't be able to breed, then yes, you'd be quite right, they can't.

Quote:
And what about regressive genes etc. Where deviations from the intended gene pattern reproduce at much lower rates. Dwarfs for example, reproduce at a much lower rate than normal humans. Everything about dna/genes etc seems to try and correct itself, rather than allow mutations to evolve.
The reason the world isn't teeming with dwarfs is because of recessive and dominant genes. If it was advantageous to be a dwarf in the natural world, you'd probably see a few more.

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Plus, no reproducible mutation has ever been recorded in human history.
Mutation is like radioactive decay. It's more or less random. That's like saying that ten years ago the winning lottery numbers were so and so, yet since then those exact numbers have never been repeated. Oh well, it still happened.

And there are cases of reproducible mutations, I believe in the areas of fruit flies, mice, and viruses.

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So it's all just theory.
In science, "theory" is the highest level of truth you can assign something, unlike the everyday bastardisation of the word which just means "idea" or "guess".

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Plus it still has not been explained to me how an ape can evolve a human nose that allows it to swim, and not drown, when attempting to engage in the activity it would use the new nose for, would kill it.
Hunting fish in a river? Those who can submerge themselves for longer - or even those who can submerge themselves at all - would end up with more fish.

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I cannot believe that if humans keep jumping off cliffs, one day we'll develop wings. It defies logic, and yet that is what supposedly happened with ape's noses, backs (which can't support bipedalism) etc.
If humans ever did develop wings, you're right, it wouldn't happen "one day". With all major evolutionary steps, we're talking millions of years. And it wouldn't happen by jumping off cliffs, either, but thanks for the strawman nonetheless. Wanting to fly doesn't mean you will mutate to fly. Giraffes weren't jumping up, trying to reach higher leaves, then lo and behold, their kids had longer necks.

There are several possible explanations for how/why the wing evolved.

- Wings evolved from arms used to capture small prey.
- Wings evolved because bipedal animals were leaping into the air; large wings assisted leaping.
- Wings evolved from gliding ancestors who began to flap their gliding structures in order to produce thrust.

That's the way, here's the how.

Quote:
I have too much doubt in evolution theory to accept it.
Ditto with the talking snake, dude.
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