Deathmatch: F/D dual vs. F/D multi

[Aerich]

I thought it would be fun to bring up this comparison again, especially as I'm running a party in HoF with both. Somebody else must have done/is doing this too.

I'll track down some of the old discussions threads about it and link them to this post for convenience... but not right now.

The first comparison point in HoF (starting with beginner characters), is on DE lvl 2 - arbitrarily, because that's where my party is currently.

The edge goes to the F/D multi, as expected. It has 22% of kills and damage caused compared to 12% for the F/D dual. It is also much more versatile in terms of ability to affect a fight (Entangle, healing, secondary effects from spells). The F/D multi is lvl 8/10 and the F/D dual is lvl 9, iirc. I think I will dual to druid at fighter lvl 15.

Stat-wise, they are almost equal. 15 Str, 18 Dex, and 18 Wis are common to both characters; both characters will get Str-enhancing items when I acquire them. Cha and Int are not really relevant to gameplay, except that the minimum requirements (15 Cha for mc, 4 Int for half-elf; 17 Cha for dc, 3 Int for human) drain vital stat points. I just couldn't bring myself to roll longer (or Dalekeep my stats).

[Ultra Marine]

In the long run, a F/D dual with grandmaster in swords and maximum access to druid spells will beat a F/D multi. But the wait is a pain.

I am playing HoF now and I can't imagine not having a F/D multi. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[xander12402]

I have played through IWD three times and never used a druid let alone dual classed or multi classed, yet I hear such good reports about druids,can someone explain (forgive my naivety) what makes them so special.

[Dundee Slaytern]

Originally posted by Ultra Marine: In the long run, a F/D dual with grandmaster in swords and maximum access to druid spells will beat a F/D multi. But the wait is a pain. I am playing HoF now and I can't imagine not having a F/D multi. [img]smile.gif[/img]

Hmm... but the Multi will end up with more HP, unless you do something ludicrous like a Lvl 29->30 Dual( which basically means no Druid for a long, long, loooong time).

Both will max out on Druidic spells and abilities, so that is not really an issue. The only real edge that the, if you want to call it that, is that the Dual can Grandmaster in his Weapon Proficiencies, but here is the catch...

Do you play your F/D as a brawler, or as a spellcaster? If the former, then the F/D is not exactly the best choice. If the latter, then Grandmastery is a moot point.

I do not know about the playstyles of others, but for me, my Druid(s) spent most, if not all, of the battle casting spells. Therefore, I very much prefer the Multi for earlier access to spells.

[Dundee Slaytern]

Originally posted by xander12402: I have played through IWD three times and never used a druid let alone dual classed or multi classed, yet I hear such good reports about druids,can someone explain (forgive my naivety) what makes them so special.

Do you have HoW installed?

[xander12402]

Yes, and Aurils bane and Totlm.

[Dundee Slaytern]

To put it simply, the Druid has access to some of the best spells in the game.

They have a lot of basic disablers, direct-damage, and of course their main specialty, summons.

The Druid also has access to shapeshifting, of which the Water Elemental is the most noteworthy for its' physical resistances.

I will leave it to somebody else to elaborate more. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[xander12402]

I might have to play it another time to find out.

[Ultra Marine]

I think the druid was modified for HoF. Their spells begin to shine in HoF. Things like :
-Entangle, for example disables casting.
-Sunscroch, blinds.
-Alicorn lance, makes -2ac.
doesn't make much difference in normal but it sure helps a LOT in HoF.

I would not play a druid as a melee guy. Its more of a slinger and caster. Even so, a dc druid will beat a mc druid with slings hands down. But the wait to get a dc f(13)/d(14) is not worth it for me.

[ZFR]

oh good, the debate on dual vs multi F/D started again; I have been absent in the previous debates. Personally I follow the NobleNick school of thought dual is better than multi. But the issue of course is more complex than that. It really depends on various factors.

Originally posted by Dundee Slaytern: Do you play your F/D as a brawler, or as a spellcaster? If the former, then the F/D is not exactly the best choice. If the latter, then Grandmastery is a moot point. I do not know about the playstyles of others, but for me, my Druid(s) spent most, if not all, of the battle casting spells. Therefore, I very much prefer the Multi for earlier access to spells.

But in that case, why not choose a pure class druid, so as to progress twice as fast as F/D. He won't have weapon specialization, he'll have less HP, he won't be able to wear armor, but so what? we only use him for spells, right?

Whether we like it or not, we will use the druid to attack. That grandmastery might not seem important, but in HoF it means grandmastery in missile weapons. In a game where you keep firing ranged weapons, that would mean a lot, much more than slight difference in HP.

I am currently running a comparism between dual and multi F/D in my HoF party. So far on second level of Kressalack's tomb my multi is D(9)/F(7) while my dual is F(8). Stats are simialr for both. Killwise dual is slightly better. I can't remeber exact numbers because I have it on a different computer but I believe it is something like dual 22% of kills while multi 18% of kills. But of course that doesn't really mean much, the multi's usefullness comes not as much from her kills but rather from her spells (disabling spells, summons).

Anyway, like I said, comparing dual vs multi depends on lots of factors. For example whether it is HoF or not.

First let's assume not HoF:

_If soloing:
Definately multi. If you try dual you will have LOTS of trouble trying to play with single class fighter without spells, and MUCH MORE trouble trying to kill more difficult monsters with single class low level druid (unless, you keep some of those ultra high quest XP awards.)

_If small party (2-3):
Multi might be better for same reasons as above, though it is less important if you have another full-time spellcaster.

_If full party:
this is were fun in comparism starts. I personally prefer dual. The only reason why multi might be better is if you are playing low-spellcaster party, specifically if you dont have any clerics and have to rely on druid spells for healing. Otherwise dual is the way to go.
First of all he will have more spells (unlike HoF, you won't max out with druid here), second he will have the important grandmastery.
Then there is another point. Remember I mentioned single-class druid? Well it is not a bad idea if you consider the fact that he will gain XP twice as fast as multi. With a small modification: instead of single class take a dual class and dual immediately at level 2. That way he will have most of the advantages of F/D: weapon specialization (only in 2, but who'd need more than two? missile plus 1 mellee), ability to wear armor, percentile strength; while at the same time gaining XP twice as fast as multi and thus having more spells. All he loses is some 4000XP to the fighter class.
So that's another advantage of dual over multi: it is more customizable; you can choose how much fighter you want to have. You can dual at level 2, 5, 9, 13... as you like.

_If full party with two druids:
This is slightly different. I think 2 multis is a bad idea: why have 2 slowly advancing druids with less spells? 1 multi and 1 dual seems to be good. Though personally I would say two duals is good as well. While 2 high level duals might not sound good, having one high dual (e.g F(13)/D) and one low dual (e.g F(2)/D), is an excellent idea, I'd say better than 1 dual and 1 multi.

_If all human party.
IMO dual is better than multi. You see, having human multi is against the rules. So it's generally accepted here that trying to make human multis is not a good idea. You can try clicking on the 'multiclass' but most probably it won't get you anywhere because the button is grayed out. So if you decide to include a multi F/D in your all human party, chances are you won't progress beyond the character creation screen.

Now let's assume you have HoF.
Here the multis are much more useful for two important reasons. First: You will max out anyway, so dual won't have more spells, and it would seem D(30)/F(30) is better than D(30)/F(15) or D(30)/F(2) or D(30)/F(0). Second: You will need those druid spells in early stages of the game much more than you needed them without HoF.
That said, I am still not sure multi is more useful. The dual will have other important advantages like the grandmastery in slings, and access to more high level spells before maxing out.

_____
That's it for now from my part. More on this as I progress through my game.

[ 08-09-2006, 08:41 PM: Message edited by: ZFR ]