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Old 10-31-2002, 10:39 AM   #91
Desdicado
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Quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:
.

"Or are you just assuming his personal thoughts on the subject due to national policies that have been in effect for more than 40 years? I do watch the news, but must have missed President Bush making those Pro-Israeli comments.
Thanks in advance."

PS. What is your view on the conflict of the Jews and the Arabs?[/QB]
He doesn't have to say anything, action / inaction / blocking of any UN resolutions criticising Israel speak louder than words for him.

No-one can surely claim the US is even handed in it's dealings with the Middle East, due to the power of the Jewish lobby in the US?.
The Palestinians kill someone it's a terrible crime, if the Israelis do it it's self defense, I can't see the distinction myself. If anything the Paletinians are defending their territory. I would do the same if someone gave West Lothian to Israel I guess.

I have no axe to grind, I am a Scotsman of solely European Christian descent but I am getting p**sed off about how the US can be so one sided and unfair.
I think this is why a good proportion of the world dislikes the US.
They are very much do as I say, not as I do.
Israel to me seems to behave very much like a certain other power from the past, ie segregation, limited travel for one group, limited citizenship for one group, persecution of one group. Need I say more?.
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Old 10-31-2002, 10:59 AM   #92
Moiraine
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Quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:
Yes Ma'am you did, yet were I the kind of person that was being alluded to, I would have argued with you just for the sake of argument. [img]smile.gif[/img] Im not saying I have never done that either, but I do try to limit it as much as possible.
Oh really ? As much as possible ?

Well, what I think of this thread so far is that it takes two to tango. IMO, any reasoning leading to an opinion that one side is all white and pure and the other side is black evil is destructive to any hope of ever solving this conflict ...

Also, the recurring of "the Jews" and "the Arabs" makes me really uncomfortable. Aside from sharing a common basis, Arabs and Jews all over the world are as diverse as all nuances of a rainbow. I believe that, as in any large group of people, both Jews and Arabs have their share of extremists, and that it is these extremists we are seeing in action in that conflict.

And please, those who did, don't use the word "race". There is only one human race on the earth, homo sapiens sapiens, it has been so since the disappearance of the Neanderthal humans 30 000 years ago.
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Old 10-31-2002, 11:13 AM   #93
MagiK
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Quote:
Originally posted by Desdicado:
He doesn't have to say anything, action / inaction / blocking of any UN resolutions criticising Israel speak louder than words for him.

No-one can surely claim the US is even handed in it's dealings with the Middle East, due to the power of the Jewish lobby in the US?.
The Palestinians kill someone it's a terrible crime, if the Israelis do it it's self defense, I can't see the distinction myself. If anything the Paletinians are defending their territory. I would do the same if someone gave West Lothian to Israel I guess.

You raise good points, but if you look, we "speak" out in support of Israel with our national policies, and we sell them supplies, weapons and arms. And we do have a rather powerful Jewish community in our political structure here in the US. On the other hand, Send billions of dollars in federal aid and subsidies to the middle east as well. We provide some of the surrounding states with weapons and supplies too. (these get to the PLO through black markets and other channels within the Arab community).

You can take each case of killing and isolate it in a vacuum and say they are both terrible, and it would be true. However if you expand your vision a bit and see the killing take place and then see a reaction to that killing, I think the reaction might be viewed by some as justified and reasonable. (im not arguing that Sharon is nice reasonable and cuddly kind of guy)


I have no axe to grind, I am a Scotsman of solely European Christian descent but I am getting p**sed off about how the US can be so one sided and unfair.
I think this is why a good proportion of the world dislikes the US.

Again, as I pointed out above, in a flappin our gums sort of way we generally have a pro-israel stance as a nation, but where the $$'s hit the pavement, both sides are getting support. Not to mention the Millions that private citizens and organizations (temples and Mosques) donate to both sides. The US is not really doing any more nor any less than the UN except it seems to get more publicity. And it hardly takes the US' policy re Israel to get European people mad at us [img]smile.gif[/img] I think we could do that just by breathing

They are very much do as I say, not as I do.
Israel to me seems to behave very much like a certain other power from the past, ie segregation, limited travel for one group, limited citizenship for one group, persecution of one group. Need I say more?.

Actually you should. You should also point out that the Jews in Nazi Germany weren't sending suicide bombers into the middle of innocent civilians, nor did the Jews of Nazi Germany have the JLO (why it means, Jewish Liberation Organization of course)declaring that they were going to push the Germans into the sea And Nazi Germany was not surrounded on all sides by Jewish states that had attacked it at least three time in attempt to anihilate all germans....
[ 10-31-2002, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]
 
Old 10-31-2002, 11:15 AM   #94
Thoran
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Join Date: January 10, 2002
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Quote:
Originally posted by Desdicado:
He doesn't have to say anything, action / inaction / blocking of any UN resolutions criticising Israel speak louder than words for him.

No-one can surely claim the US is even handed in it's dealings with the Middle East, due to the power of the Jewish lobby in the US?.
The Palestinians kill someone it's a terrible crime, if the Israelis do it it's self defense, I can't see the distinction myself. If anything the Paletinians are defending their territory. I would do the same if someone gave West Lothian to Israel I guess.

I have no axe to grind, I am a Scotsman of solely European Christian descent but I am getting p**sed off about how the US can be so one sided and unfair.
I think this is why a good proportion of the world dislikes the US.
They are very much do as I say, not as I do.
Israel to me seems to behave very much like a certain other power from the past, ie segregation, limited travel for one group, limited citizenship for one group, persecution of one group. Need I say more?.[/QB]
I agree with you that there's an apparent difference in how killings by the PLO and Israel are percieved, but it appears to me that Israeli attacks on Palestinians (at least the ones that get international press) are always reactions to a previous PLO action. Most people will not have a problem with someone punching a guy back that's just punched him.

Regarding the US being one-sided. I am of a mind that if the rest of the Arab world and the Soviets would have kept their noses out of the whole affair, the US wouldn't need have needed to participate in the first place. Early actions (Documented so succinctly by Magik) caused us to get involved, and we have been ever since (even though these days the Israeli's hardly need our help... save at perhaps a political level)

I also believe that many of the onorous restrictions on Arabs in Israel and the occupied territories are a RESULT of the conflict, not a cause. When one is attacked I think it's reasonable to take steps to limit your exposure to further attack.

Pertaining to possession of Jerusalem and again to treatment of Arabs, I would also suggest we look at a scenario where Arabs were in possession of Jerusalem... what would be the likely living conditions of non-Muslem's in such a place? Having a number of times been less than 50 miles from Mecca (a place I'd dearly love to visit) and been unable to take a cab there (because I'd have been under penalty of death if I did)... I tend to think that non-Muslims would have very limited access to a Palestinian Jerusalem.

My modest research has turned up some biased treatement of Arabs with Israeli citizenship, and I definitely don't agree with that... but I have absolutely no doubt that Jews living in an Arab nation would be at least as "constrained" as the opposite situation.
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Old 10-31-2002, 11:22 AM   #95
MagiK
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Oh, wow, I was forgetting to even think about the Soviet role in events in the middle east in the 60's, 70's, 80's and to lesser extents in the 90's. Cool, glad someone brought that up.
 
Old 10-31-2002, 11:24 AM   #96
Timber Loftis
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MagiK, I've wondered lately if you have gotten more argumentative on your posts. But, I really don't think you have. I think something was skewing my perception. I thought about it, and I've decided that Dreadnoks avatar makes you look mean.
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Old 10-31-2002, 11:26 AM   #97
Ar-Cunin
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Join Date: August 14, 2001
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Quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:
I don't suppose you could point me to any public sources for information regarding Bush and his thoughts on Israel? Or are you just assuming his personal thoughts on the subject due to national policies that have been in effect for more than 40 years? I do watch the news, but must have missed President Bush making those Pro-Israeli comments.
Thanks in advance.

Sharon have been to the White House something like 5 times in GWB's term - Arafat not only haven't been invited - USA have publicly stated that they do not want to talk to him.

I hope that this does represent GWB's thoughts on the subject - he's suppossed to be in charge.
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Old 10-31-2002, 11:30 AM   #98
MagiK
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Quote:
Originally posted by Moiraine:

Well, what I think of this thread so far is that it takes two to tango. IMO, any reasoning leading to an opinion that one side is all white and pure and the other side is black evil is destructive to any hope of ever solving this conflict ...

Sadly Im afraid your right, there really doesn't appear to be any peaceful way to solve this whole middle east conflict thing

Also, the recurring of "the Jews" and "the Arabs" makes me really uncomfortable. Aside from sharing a common basis, Arabs and Jews all over the world are as diverse as all nuances of a rainbow. I believe that, as in any large group of people, both Jews and Arabs have their share of extremists, and that it is these extremists we are seeing in action in that conflict.

I think the use of the terms "The Jews" and "the Arabs" here is not ment to be a social commentary on either people, it is mearly a convenient way to refer to the combatants, a way to quickly differentiate wich side you are talking baout.

And please, those who did, don't use the word "race". There is only one human race on the earth, homo sapiens sapiens, it has been so since the disappearance of the Neanderthal humans 30 000 years ago.

I happen to agree with you there as well [img]smile.gif[/img] (this is an amazing day ) But if we do follow that logic, then it is completely impossible for a person to be a racist [img]smile.gif[/img] Unless there are some undocumented Cromagnons running around out there
 
Old 10-31-2002, 11:35 AM   #99
MagiK
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ar-Cunin:
Sharon have been to the White House something like 5 times in GWB's term - Arafat not only haven't been invited - USA have publicly stated that they do not want to talk to him.

I hope that this does represent GWB's thoughts on the subject - he's suppossed to be in charge.

You are right, that Arafat is being ignored, it is precisely his inability to do anything at all effective in the negotiations that the US has decided to look for another person who may actually be able to speak for the Palistinian side of things. Arafat has not been able to make a single agreement or gaurentee that has been kept. Even the Oslo Accords were ripped up as soon as he got home when he publicly stated that Like Muhaamed who made an insincere peace with an enemy so that he could have time to build an army with which to destroy them, so too did he (Arafat) agree to the Oslo Accords.
[ 10-31-2002, 11:36 AM: Message edited by: MagiK ]
 
Old 10-31-2002, 11:46 AM   #100
Timber Loftis
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Join Date: July 11, 2002
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 11,916
Quote:
Originally posted by MagiK:
quote:
Originally posted by Ar-Cunin:
Sharon have been to the White House something like 5 times in GWB's term - Arafat not only haven't been invited - USA have publicly stated that they do not want to talk to him.

I hope that this does represent GWB's thoughts on the subject - he's suppossed to be in charge.

You are right, that Arafat is being ignored, it is precisely his inability to do anything at all effective in the negotiations that the US has decided to look for another person who may actually be able to speak for the Palistinian side of things. Arafat has not been able to make a single agreement or gaurentee that has been kept. Even the Oslo Accords were ripped up as soon as he got home when he publicly stated that Like Muhaamed who made an insincere peace with an enemy so that he could have time to build an army with which to destroy them, so too did he (Arafat) agree to the Oslo Accords.
[/QUOTE]IMHO, Arafat is a problem *maker* not solver. His sympathies for the bombers and other varieties of Palestinian terrorists is not unknown, he simply has the wisdom to jockey for compromise. But, again IMHO, if he had his way, he'd have pom poms out cheering them on til his dying day. Worse, his past efforts to be conciliatory, made during moments of lucidity perhaps , have made his words and decrees ineffectual as to the Palestinians. So, MagiK is quite astute here.

But, Israelis by no means have clean hands. First, do the math: from what I've noticed, for every 1 sraeli killed by a bomber there are several retributory deaths. Sharon's enemies pay in spades. Moreover, Sharon himself is a totem poster-boy of Israel's wrongs: but please don't be offended by *me,* Mr. Butcher (Sharon, not MagiK lol), as I'd hate to be on the wrong side of your anger.

Seriously, though, Israel's really stirring the pot, and has been for a couple of years. They decided when Sharon came into office that they were fed up, and they've been rather intractable since. Look, during the most recent "let's see how much we can mess with Arafat's compound" episode, Israel actually rappelled a few troops on top of the compound, where they subsequently ran the Israeli flag up the pole and left. Now that's chutzpah. And it only instigates more violence.

At some point, the tit-for-tat becomes ridiculous, and no side can be said to be "defensive" - both are simply "offensive." as far as I'm concerned.

[ 10-31-2002, 11:47 AM: Message edited by: Timber Loftis ]
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